What would YOU bring ?

So here it is folks. Our unit has been tasked with running an upcoming survival exercise in late spring. On the last survival exercise I was so disgusted with the incompetence of the instructor that I called him an idiot and walked out of his class. Since then guys from my unit have found out who I am on this forum and have been reading my posts . My boss reads this forum from time to time as well and figured out who I am.(not exactly like I try and hide it) Guess who the instructor for the next survival course will be ?

I will be giving a full day of classroom lessons followed by a 72 hour exercise in the field. The exercise is still not confirmed as of yet (due to training funding allocations etc) but I will be ready if it does. These are the guidelines for the exercise and scenario:

Each student will be ONLY allowed to take:
1.a single knife of their choosing
2.issued multi-tool(S.O.G)
3.issued sunnto compass/map
4.issued first aid items-(shell dressings, C-A-T tourniquet, gloves, CPR mask, quick clot)
5.Issued flash light
6.penjector with flares(red) x 3
7.Issued camel- bak, 3 L
8.issued sidearm. 9mm NATO(may be a notional item for safety )
9. Issued IMP x 1
10.PSK (all items MUST fit inside a standard sized soap dish, and are
of the students choice)
The above items are what any soldier is expected to have on him at all times besides the normal fighting order(at the very least) while deployed.

This is the scenario in brief:

You are on the way back from a tactical operation B.E.L when your chopper gets hit. You go down. You are alive and unhurt somehow, but everyone else is dead. The chopper is on fire so you get away from the wreck. The Enemy will be here soon to check the wreckage for survivors so you need to move fast. You know from your brief that there is an area of relative safety 5 clicks away from here (an emergency LZ). Your guys will be looking for you soon, but you have to get out of here. Your rifle was in the chopper which is now engulfed in flames. You only have made it out of the chopper with your TAC vest, FRAG vest and helmet. You decide to ditch these items and take only what you need as you must travel light and fast. You take only the items listed above and ditch the rest (FRAG VEST, helmet, TAC vest, Rifle ammo, etc) you have used your FRAG grenades and smoke earlier. All and any other gear which you may have used is burning in the chopper (GPS, radio, crash pack, etc , etc)

Using the map and compass you manage to get to the emergency LZ. You are unsure if the Enemy suspects that you have survived the crash, but you don't want to take that chance of being spotted before rescue arrives. It is late spring and the weather is mild at the moment, but may turn at any second. Day time temp is an average of between + 15-25 deg cel with the night dropping to an average of 3-10 deg cel. You are in a lightly forested area. You are wearing your issued combat clothing, Gore-tex Wet weather boots, and leather combat gloves(your gore-tex jacket, rain gear and other spare snivel kit was burned in the crash)
It is best to stay in this location unless you are compromised as this is where the rescue team is likely to look first. Nothing to do now but hold out until help arrives. Time to dig out the PSK ......................................


If this exercise is a go, Each of the troops gets put in a location away from everyone else for 72 hours and will be told to stay put, but first, there is a forced march of 8-10 K to make sure everyone is tired and sweaty first. they will be allowed a 100 m area to best choose for shelter location etc but must stay within that limit for safety and control.(there will be a water source in that distance) They will be checked up on every so often and at any time there is a real threat they will have a flare gun and a few red flares to signal for help. Someone from the staff will be on constant watch just in case. Training is well and good but you don't want someone REALLY get hurt.

I have done this course as a student already and it was an awesome eye opener. What you decide to bring in the soap dish is up to you but you need to live with that decision for three days in the cold/wet. As a student, this is what I brought.

My knife of choice was my Gerber LMF II

These are the items I carried in my soap disk PSK:

Military survival sheet (silver on one side, OD on the other)
spark-lite with 4 tinder
6 wind/waterproof matches with striker strip
12 feet of braided mine string
4 feet of snare wire
large zip lock bag
Micro-pur(MP-1) water purification tablets x 8
4 foot length of GUN tape, wrapped around two double headed nails.
Large needle
4 large safety pins
A flexible straw
A mini-spool of mil spec sewing thread(VERY strong stuff)
1 x large fishing hook, 2 x small fishing hooks
survival whistle, jetscream
A sheet of tin foil 2 feet x 8 inches
A picture of the wife and kid
A scalpel blade
(this is all I could cram into the dish)

With these items I did fine. Once you have a good, concealed shelter in place and a means of getting water then basically you have three days of boredom to cope with while your belly growls and you come up with all sorts of interesting games to play to beat out the clock while attempting to stay out of sight(like trying to find food) The biggest problems were that only red light could be used, lighting a fire had to be concealed underground in a Dakota fire pit(works quite well, but the smoke is a problem) and the stupid, G++++++++, F++++++ little black flies that were relentless no matter how you tried to cover up. And then of course, the rain


As well you are not allowed to have a watch. The safety staff makes checks at random intervals but the student usually won’t even know he/she is being observed. Since there is a tactical side to this, if you are spotted at a distance of over 200 m from what would be the Enemies point of view (due to light, smoke etc) then you will fail the scenario. You can fire off a red flare in an emergency and you will be rescued in an emergency (getting stung and having an allergic reaction, or real serious injury etc) BUTS THAT'S ABOUT IT. If you try to take the easy way out because you are cold and wimpy you will be simply told to suck it up as you get a new flare and watch the truck drive away again.(they will leave you there but you will still fail the exercise) The reason for the soap dish is that it gives every student a set standard so no one can have an unfair advantage over the other and usually for a military survival kit space is very limited anyway, so it is very realistic.

I figure this forum would be a great way to generate healthy discussion and ideas on this topic. I am looking forward to teaching on this course and I really hope we get the go ahead from higher. If you were faced with this situation and could bring a PSK in which all items had to be kept to a size limit of what you could fit in a soap dish.................

What would YOU bring???

I'd bring my Gerber LMF II as well...it was designed for helicopter egress after all.

If I knew I would only be out for 3 days I'd be really selective about the gear I took. It's most likely I'd take my personal PSK kit because it's smaller than a bar of soap and it's what I'm familiar with. It's got all the basics tinder, sparker, bandages, meds, firesteel, tape, etc. I'd likely supplement it with as much paracord or wire as would fit into said container so that I could give myself the best chance of being able to build a good primitive shelter that will keep me fairly warm without fire and shield me from prying eyes.

You may wanna trade out the scalpel blade for http://www.countycomm.com/straightrazor.htm they arent that much longer than a scalpel in it's package and it's about as thick as a penny I'd also include one of the saws that are the same size shown here http://www.countycomm.com/seresaw.htm if you want to buy the item in bulk and pass a few out they can be bought buy the case alot cheaper and they offer many diffrent colors here http://www.derma-safe.com/index.htm

Can we get picture of the soap dish?

I'm thinking some paracord, Micropur tabs, firesteel, hard candy and a book to read.

-Blast

The purpose of fitting all the items into the soap dish is only for the challenge of the task. Afterwards its entirely up to the soldier what to put in their Military gear as a PSK. The general rule is "you pack it you hump it” But by the time your TAC vest is filled with mission essential equipment (ammo, grenades, wire cutters etc) you have very little room for much else. The point of the exercise is to be mega confident in the limited items you do decide to take.

When I am bashing about hunting at home my PSK is quite large with a fair amount of comfort items. When at work I have no other choice but to go ULTRA-Light.

Hi Taurus,

The Knife would be a Bacho Laplander, The issued SOG would be sufficient for other duties.


1 BCB Aluminium Mini Mess tin box (would this allowed or would this be considered to large compared to the soap dish)

In the soap dish/mini mess tin would be the following;

1 Ipod Nano,
1 Small Vial of Bog Myrtle Oil.
4 Ibuprofen.
2 Codeine Phosphate.
4 Benadryl.
12 Micro-pur MP1 water purification tablets
5 NATO + 5 Strike Anywhere matches in waxed cardboard and Striker.
1 Swedish Firesteel Cadet without the Plastic Holder.
1 Silva SERE 40 Luminous compass.
1 Wet Fire Tinder.
1 Esbit Hexamine Tab.
1 Small Candle.
1 BCB flexible wire saw.
1 Sewing kit consisting 3 various sized needles rapped in high strength sewing thread.
1 Small Fishing Kit. (various hooks, 5 Kg line, snaps, splits, safety pins etc)
1 metre of 18 gauge brass wire.
4 assorted plasters.
1 Set of DR surival instructions.
1 Red LED microlight (i.e CR2032 powered) or a Betalight.
1 Space Pen refil rapped in 30cm length of Duct tape.
2 Sheets of A6 Rite in Rain waterproof paper.
10 metres of 200lb Flexifoil hydroline.
1 Lifeventure Aluminium Mountain Whistle.
1 Very Small bar of Soap.
1 Medium Aloksak resealable Polybag.
3 Stock or bouillon cubes.
Some local coinage and paper currency.


And if possible to try and sneak a Lifesystems Midge Mosquito Head net in the lining of the clothing.

IS the survival blanket the thin disposable type or the more sturdy re-useable casualty blanket. I would try to make an arguement for including the re-useable model, it could fit in the camelbac bladder carry pouch as further insulation/padding for you back? If not- O well !

I would ditch the 12ft. of nylon cord. Replace it with Paracord shoe laces. Even when you pull the inner cords you still have the sheath to tie your shoes. You could also add the countycomm
razor knife and saw to your boots just like you tie in a spare dog tag.
pc of colored cloth for hook lures and/or fish fly, trebles?

Button compass, in the last big war they were small enough to swallow if you got caught.

More water tabs, 8 will not last 3 days in any amount of heat.

Not sure if I would carry a jetscream whistle or not, do you want everyone to know where you are or just signal to those close by? You can get decent small flat whistles at a boat or dive shop.

switch out the ziploc for a turkey oven bag.

Holy bloody crap dude!! If you can fit all of that into a soap dish then give me a call and let me know where I am going wrong because after 12 years in the Army I still haven't figured that one out (lol)

I hope I didn't confuse anyone. Sometimes I think people will know what I am talking about because everyone I work with knows what I am referring to, but then I realize that most people here on this forum are not military. I get more than one confused look in my eyes when people start talking about canoeing or climbing or other stuff I have no knowledge of.

By soap dish I mean the plastic type that has two halves that fit together over one another (the kind you toss it into a gym bag to keep wet soap water from getting on everything) and not the type you would have permanently next to your bathroom sink.

And once again, we all don't keep the stuff in the dish after the exercise. Then we have free reign to pack our PSK any way we choose. I took mine out and packed it differently. (The same as the mini-psk on my hunting core gear post)


I just noticed that I am an enthusiast now with over 200 posts.
WOW, not bad considering how much I loathe sitting in front of a cpu. I originally started reading this forum after breaking a whole bunch of ribs and fingers. I couldn’t type much but I could still surf forums and other......um.......stuff....... online . I began to read this forum and joined 4 months later. Kind of been hooked ever since.............

You'll be an addict in no time

In any Military survival situation most items are designed to be a one-time use. I guess you could re-use the blanket but it is just easier to get another one issued.
In a non-training environment I can stuff items into my other gear any way I want but you cannot exchange your boot laces for Para-cord. You have to use the issued laces. For the training you must fit all items into the dish but once you pass the training you can do whatever you want (like a lot of the little tricks you mentioned) the dish thing is to make it more challenging.

In the scenario you will notice that the issued SUUNTO compass was one of the items on the allowed list as you are expected to have this item on you anyway.(a bit hard to swallow this one though

The whistle is because your rescue team may be dropped off a distance away and come to search on foot. If you see that they are friendlies you can blow the whistle to get their attention first without causing surprise. If you come shouting and waving your arms while running out of the trees you may get blown away by the very people that are there to rescue you.
I only chose the zip-loc bag because it could zip and un-zip easily to store water for later use. Can you seal a turkey bag? Or do you have to be constantly fighting with a knot?

The weather was fairly cool but true; you would want more tabs in a hotter situ.

Thanks for all the replies guys, getting some good feedback on this

I gotta say Taurus, I can cram quite a bit into an Altoid tin, like AFLM.

If your soap dish is what I think, you should be able to get a BUNCH in. You never specified that the soap dish had to fit all the way closed, right? So... cram it full, and use the tape to keep the top and bottom from falling apart. You should theoretically have close to 2" of height, and still just have the barest of overlap between the 2 halves. it's only cheating if it's against the rules, AND you get caught!!!

Now, if you want, I can try and unpack my PSK and show you how crammed it is. Might be ugly getting it back together though!

Sorry I did not notice the CA. location.
The US casualty blanket is just like a HD space blanket w/4 grommets, wt. 11oz. color silver/od.
Are the matches dependable enough to keep when you still have a spark lite?
A turkey bag is very strong but open ended. I do not see that as a problem if you have string, no need to tie a knot in the bag.
I would still drop the jetscream and switch it out for a flat whistle.
Do you have any provision for a signal mirror? There are several types of flat mylar mirrors that could work and be cut to size for your kit.

Hi Taurus,

Darn, looks like the Ipod Nano is going to have to go and be replaced with an Ipod Shuffle instead

There are some little tricks to maximise space, all the meds can fit into aluminium whistle then sealed with cling film for example.



The whistle form factor is a lot easier to accommodate than the conventional plastic types.

The bulkiest item would be the 10m of Flexifoil Hydroline, but this can be wrapped around the container.

The main problem if using a plastic soap container rather than the BCB mini mess tin would be the problem of boiling water, rather than use aluminium foil these aluminium foil pots could be used instead if packed carefully.



http://www.planetfear.com/product_detail.asp?d_id=9&c_id=19&s_id=512&p_id=11202#

Mini-Bic Lighter,
3 Water pills (the new ones),
10 feet snare wire,
AND,
All the chocolate that will fit!

Ha ! Awesome replies folks. It’s definitely getting me thinking for sure. What I packed when I did this training worked but that doesn’t mean it can’t be better.

MDinana- I tried to cheat when I did it but it was futile. They caught me and made sure the dish closed completely. Likewise, I will make my students do the same.(just because) A certain element of the training is to make it a little uncomfortable. Three days doesn’t sound like a long time but once you try it trust me. The seconds tick by VERY slow. The Bas****s take your watch away just to make it all the more agonizing.

frediver - I kept the matches simply out of habit. I would have been fine without them. Since it was a tactical survival exercise fire was tricky as if you were seen by the staff you would fail. I made a Dakota fire pit on the second night to warm my hands a bit, roast some crab apples I managed to scrounge and boil a bit of water with raspberries in it. I ended up having to bury the fire after about an hour because the smoke was too hard to control.
The jet scream is an awesome whistle but I know there are lighter ones that will do the trick. The jetscream was free and that’s the only reason I carry them now.

The sunnto compass has a real glass mirror about the size of a credit card built in as a sighting mirror.


Am_Fear_Liath_Mor - Thats a real neat trick with the meds in the whistle thing. I don’t know how it would work in the ones I carry. I would hate for something to get stuck in there when I needed it most. For the purpose of this training, everything had to be INSIDE the case. (The Army’s way of sticking it to you on training) I made a small cup out of the tin foil I was carrying and crafted a crude handle out of grass. half way through my tea the foil let go and I got a lap full of scalding raspberry juice. The flies ant ants were an absolute NIGHTMARE after that. Lesson painfully learned on the foil cup thing.


The purpose of being so strict on the dish thing was only to instill a great sense of planning in the decision making process. When you know that all you get for 3 days is what you can fit in such a small space you choose VERY carefully. When you train to survive with very little the theory is that you will do even better with more. The Army mentality is to have enough to last 3 days as help should have found you by then. I am not saying I totally agree with this, But that is how the training is usually geared. I got a few funny looks when I was stuffing the survival sheet in the dish as it took 80% of the space, but I had a dry, semi-warm camp while others were freezing and wet. Likewise one guy took a small bug repellant wipe and I didn’t and I regretted that for the whole dammed three days.

On a funny note though, One dude took only a mini-BIC and a pack of crushed smokes. He was so weak/cold and tired after the three days he took a whole week to recover from it but he still made it when other guys didn't.

Just for everyone’s info, the exercise instills a very good idea in your mind about what you need and what you don’t.

This is what I have in my Military survival kit now.
• Starflash mirror
• Jetscream whistle
• Double headed nails x 2
• Mini-roll of mil spec OD tripwire
• Spark-lite with 6 tinder
• Wetfire tinder x 1
• 12 feet of Para-cord
• Mini-BIC
• 6 Mariner matches w/ striker
• Button compass
• Mini-hack saw blade
• 4 large safety pins
• Mini-fishing kit
• Mini spool of mil spec super thread
• Large needle
• Mini roll of GUN tape, approx 15 feet
• Survival sheet
• Scalpel blade
• Large zip lock bag
• 20 micro-pur(MP1) tabs
• Star nav/ground air signal reference card.
As space is EXTREAMLY limited in my TAC vest this is all I can afford space and weight wise. I am comfortable with it though. It will not fit in a soap dish but it will fit in a cargo pocket of my Combat pants or a pouch in my TAC(usually carried in the pouch with the trauma gear) I then have a few backups in my ruck sac.

Once again, thanks for all the constructive input.

I don't have any suggestions. Sounds like you've put a lot of thought into it and have all the bases covered.

One question, though. You've mentioned double headed nails a couple of times. That's pretty specific. What use do you put the nails to, and why double headed? Just curious.

Kevin B.

Wait, so you're telling me I get a multi-tool, a knife, a flashlight, a water container, food, a gun, signal flares, a compass, a first aid kit....AND a PSK?

That's not survival, that's better living than some hotels I've stayed in.

Seriously though, looking through the list of what you get, it seems like the largest things missing are:

=A way to make fire (other than the flares and the matches in the IMP)
=A simple way to purify and possibly boil water
=Some kind of shelter (or at least something dry to sit/lay on)
=A way to procure certain foods, like fish or small animals (Though you have the gun, I'm guessing you can't use it without being discovered).


So with that in the back of my mind, I would pack the following (I'm guessing on the size requirement since I don't have a soap dish here):

-A ziplock freezer bag or two (I like to put most of my PSK contents in one of these, as it makes it easier to go through them without dropping stuff)
-A mini-bic
-A slightly shaved down BSA hotspark (ferro-rod)
-Some form of tinder (I usually use cotton balls mixed with a little petroleum jelly)
-At least 10 Micro-pur MP-1 tabs
-A big sheet of heavy duty foil folded up
-A large garbage bag
-A few feet of paracord
-A spool of braided spiderwire (maybe wrap it around something to save space)
-A few small fish hooks
-A few large safety pins (if they aren't in the first aid kit)
-Two heavy duty sewing needles
-A few long screw-eye hooks (good for tying cord or snares to trees without wasting a lot)
-Small roll of snare/trip wire
-A scalpel or exacto blade
-Possibly a simple squeeze light (Photon)
-Possibly a small whistle


Whatever room I had left (if any) would be taken up by hard candy, bouillon cubes/packets, little powdered drink mix packets, peanut packets, or whatever other food stuffs I could cram in.

As for the knife I think I would choose an Ontario Rat-7. The sheath of that knife has a little pocket, in which I would stick a folding DMT diamond stone if allowed.


With that said, this is difficult to do without the items in front of me. I would also prepare ahead of time by trying out my gear and kit to see what I was deficient in. Even if there are more rules, as to how I can use my gear once I get there, it's better than going in completely blind, even if it is just training.

On a final note, what model SOG is issued? I'm guessing a PowerLock?

For those of you who get the Discovery Channel's Military Channel they've been running a 2 hour documentary about a US Marine cold weather survival training course. Here's a link to a schedule of showings for part 1. They use a scenario similar to the one being proposed for Taurus's training, only with a twist at the end.

Don't know if it's available on the web or on DVD.

Use 80lb dacron line instead of the sewing thread. You will get a lot more use out of it, and it won't take up any more space for about the same length.

Switch out to the fox micro whistle. Just as loud, but quite a bit smaller.

If I were sitting in camp with no food and nothing else to do and in a combat location, I would get busy making weapons/booby traps/alerting devices etc. You should give added credit to any student so inclined, allowing they are not giving away their location in so doing.

That's why I never bother with aluminum. It's just not up to the job of replacing a real metal cup/pot (just ask CANOEDOGS )

The comment about bugs has made me re-evaluate my wilderness survival kit. It doesn't have anything to keep the insects away, though I do coat my clothes with a permethian (spelling) spray that is supposed to repel bugs for up to two weeks. I might try and squeeze a small vial of 100% DEET into my kit or maybe a headnet. The headnet would have the dual-purpose of being a fish net...

As for them taking your watches, would making a sundial help any?

So Taurus, when are you going to set up a survival weekend for fellow ETSers? It'd be fun to see how we all make out.

Hmmm, that's not such a bad idea. I'd be willing to try and set up a Texas survival test weekend if there's enough interest.

-Blast

Blast,

You can get bug repellant wipes like alcohol swabs. I forget the brand but they're perfect size for getting your face and hands...and they take up next to no space. I typically pack a little bottle of vintage 90% DEET Muskol in my bag next to the sun screen in the summer.

I keep a Coghlan's bug hat net thing (I think I paid $1.85)permanently inside my O.R. goretex hat. It never comes out unless I'm using it.

Good call on the fish net too. I'm not sure it's big or strong enough for fishing but it would be perfect for scooping minnows to use as bait.

Bait, heck minnows are good eating in their own right!

-Blast, who is rarely invited to go fishing anymore

Looks like you have it pretty well nailed down, Taurus.

The one thing I keep getting stuck on is that I really like to have a metal cup. Even if its just rusty old tin can. The soap dish size & shape restriction makes this a major challenge. A small tin (perhaps minus the lid) would fit, but would be too shallow to be worth it, IMAO. Bandaids used to come in a rectangular metal box with a hinged lid and that's the container I used for my very first survival kit as a kid...

On the other hand, the restriction imposed on the use of fire mitigates a cup's usefulness somewhat. You have the MP1 tabs and a camelbak so there's no real need to boil water, its just a comfort issue. Oh - might want to add one more tablet so you can purify three full 3L camelbaks.

One more thing is the "IMP" the Canadian equivalent of an MRE? What luxury! I wonder if I would eat it all at once or stretch it over all three days as a "special treat" once or twice a day. Be sure not to "field strip" it like you normally would so you can used the packaging for tinder/etc.

Anyhow, where do I sign up?

Can you use Ranger Bands to close your soap box?
They can work as fire starters as well as a smoke signal should the need arise.
Don't forget to switch out your shoe laces when you are done with the exercise.
What is the mil spec thread made from, Dacron or spectra? How would a person get some of it? If it is Dacron is it the weight on bow string material?
Mini Trangia mess tins will fit into a std. ammo pouch and likely contain all your survival gear plus give you a cooking container. These are mini versions of the std. British mess tins, about 1/2 liter size.
<<>>

If I didn't miss something, it looks like your only water container will be the camelbak.
Fire to boil water also seems to be out of question.
So you really need MicroPur tablets (or equivalent)
I don't have any clue about the size of the soap dish you are talking about.
Could you add a few paper coffee filters , to filter the water you will put in the Camelbak ?
Or maybe a permanent coffee filter ?

OTOH, the water may be clear enough in that area to not need any filtering

British army issue kukri. Your being hunted and you might have to engage the enemy. So take a knife that will let you kill an enemy combatant with one blow.

The only thing that you want in your soap box is sealable plastic bags, bug repellent and purification tablets.

The bags are to defaecate and urinate into.

One you get to the L.Z. you should construct a hide ( preferably below ground level). Insulate it as well as circumstances permit. Get into it and do not move. If you need to go toilet use one of the bags.

Forget about hunting, lighting fires etc. They are a quick way to blow your position.

Other considerations:

Your hide should be close to but not on the L.Z.
You should have more than one exit/escape route.
You should be able to observe the L.Z.
Gear that you disgard at the crash site should be thrown into the fire. Leaving gear around = note to the enemy.
When you leave the crash site make maximum effort to conceal your trail by:
Brushing your tracks out.
Move in a direction that does not lead directly to the L.Z.
Assume that the enemy is going to use dogs to track you. So find water and use it to conceal your scent.
The switched on and smart will have taken the trouble to cram as much food into their pockets as possible. MRE's with heater packs are a smart move. As is high protein and carbohydrate snacks like GORP, M&M's etc. Just make sure that the meals are not the spicy ones that can be smelt 100 m away.

Paul810 – Trust me, it sounds like a lot but it is a fairly realistic scenario. A soldier is expected to have certain basic items on him at all times to fight and to live, they aren’t much of a soldier otherwise. The hardest part of this whole training exercise is not the surviving but rather not to get spotted and therein lies the big challenge. (Did I mention that they scan your location with NVG at night as well?)
This is just the basic survival course. The advanced lasts 10 days. (That one was no fun at all)

Blast – I fully agree that a metal cup is the way to go. We have the issued NATO canteen cup with stove just like man vs wild except they are green and a thermos instead of just a water bottle. (But they took them from us as well). That’s why I ended up wearing my nice hot drink, I had to improvise. (It just didn’t go as planned) oh well, foil does have its other uses. (Lesson learned) I don’t go far without my canteen cup otherwise. By the way, we have troops heading to Texas very soon for some joint training (fort Hood I think??) Any sights to see while down that way? We are sure to get a night or two off to visit.

KevinB – the double headed nails I use resemble the colored thumb tacks on top, With a sorta grove with two extended ridges. This prevents them from being driven flush with wood in the same way as a thumb tack can only be pushed so far into cork. The indented part is for a wrecking bar to be able to grab with its teeth. Since the ground is frozen here a lot driving a stick into the earth for a tarp tie down would be near impossible. I use the double headed nails primarily for this purpose. The double head holds a loop of string very well and you can easily lash to other things for traps, a frog sticker etc. There are a lot of things I am sure I can use a good sturdy nail for besides this.

Thseng – Yes. IMP stands for “individual meal pack” and follows the same principal as the U.S issued MRE. Unlike some countries who issue a whole days calories in a larger ration an IMP provides only a meals worth of calories. I stretched mine out over the three days as best I could and added other stuff by living off the land where possible. I am about 205 lbs and fairly active so I was ravenous for the first 2 days. After that I got used to not eating and it wasn’t so bad. On the advanced course you get only 6 for 10 days. That was a hard go. I lost 9 lbs in 10 days on that one.

Frediver – No, part of the rules are that no items can be around the dish in any way. (otherwise a smartass like me would have tried wrapping a sleeping bag around the dish) I have no idea what the Mil spec thread is made from(I will have to check) But I bet I could lift half my weight off the ground with it without it breaking. I get it issued in small mini spools but I have not seen it for sale anywhere.

Frenchy – Part of my list was a zip loc bag and micro-pur(MP1) tabs. You must have overlooked it. I really like that coffee filter idea though. For something so obvious as a way to filter water I didn’t think of it. (I used a piece cut from the top of my wool sock as a filter)

Leigh ratcliffe – in this scenario, the stranded troop still has his sidearm. If the Enemy is engaging me then chances are that he has a gun of his own. I don’t want to take a knife to a gun fight. If I had to engage it may as well be with my side arm, otherwise there is no point carrying it. There are only a few troops in the world that good at swinging Kukri knives to do it in such a way as to kill an enemy and avoid giving away their position. In fact, I think they invented the Kukri knives in the first place. You know who I am referring to! My skills with a knife are good but not compared to a gurkha. I try to sway from the tactics side of the house on the forum as much as possible but you have some awesome tips. I have had the pleasure only once in my career to work alongside the British SAS and these are exactly the kind of tips I would expect from those guys. (Almost word for word actually) You are obviously a person with military experience. One thing puzzles me though, why would you take bug repellant and at the same time be worried about the smell made by a spicy ration. If Dogs are indeed on your tail then they will smell the bug juice just as well( or better)
We couldn’t put stuff in pockets for this exercise. On all other occasions I carry GORP as a sustained energy booster.

Thanks for the feedback folks.

I've never been in the military, but I would think that some form of communication with your rescue team would be paramount while you're in hostile territory. Since you said you normally keep your signal mirror in your TAC vest and that gets left behind in the burning chopper in this exercise (I assume all your other communications gear as well), I'd want a second mirror in my soap dish! I'm not sure a whistle would do much to attract your mates in a rescue chopper, it would just alert the enemy wouldn't it?

He noted that the sunnto compass they use has a pretty good mirror. If it's anything like the mirror on my sunnto it would make for an excellent signal mirror. I think with that, the flares, and the whistle he would have signaling covered. However, it's always good to have more than one if you can fit it.

Edit: Whoops, looks like Taurus beat me to it.

Thinking to how I would deal with the situation personally I would think that physical survival would be fairly easy as long conditions weren't extreme.

The tough part would be mental survival. I'm anything but afraid of confined spaces but staying in said place for 3 days could really test your brain. Being able to occupy yourself.

In October I visited Alcatraz and took the audio tour (voiced by the guards and inmates who lived and worked there). One of the stories which stuck in my mind was related to the solitary confinement...where the prisoner would be in a very small cell for 23 hours a day...much of that in complete darkness.
Some of the things they came up with to occupy their time and save their sanity was truly amazing...I think it would take that sort of ingenuity (though maybe at not quite that extreme) to get through several days in one spot with enemies and danger all around you.

Then again it might be as simple as a deck of cards or some dice.

I have had a few bad days overseas. I will admit from my own experiences that in a real life situation FEAR is usually what occupies the mind instead of boredom. Anyone who says otherwise is a blatant liar.

In training when you know you are really in no danger of being captured and tortured to death in unthinkable ways then the mindset is much less stressful, this is when bordom sets in. On my 10 day course I tried racing ants. A red one and a black one. I even built a little track for them to race on. It is amazing what intense boredom can reduce a person to do with his time. I think by day 5 I would have sold my soul for a Nintendo DS and a box of batteries.

Interesting scenario, Taurus. Sounds primarily like a mental confidence exercise, though of course the gear helps the mind stay focused.

Fire, obviously, is not an option. The smell can travel a mile or more, and lead your adversary right to you.

So it's dig in, stay dry, insulate, and wait.

Which brings me to the knife of choice. It seems to me that digging will be more important than cutting. Dig a slit trench, dig holes to hide the scent of waste. So would the Cold Steel kukri you mentioned be a better choice? Or how about the Ontario SP8 short machete (which really looks like a sharpened pry bar)?

Then there's insect repellant. You know better than most how the little devils can sap your will to live. Low concentration DEET solutions are usually scented, and scent travels, which is bad. 100% DEET isn't, if I remember correctly. A few dabs on your head and neck may help keep you sane and in the game.

My two cents' worth.

It's not shovel but the LMF II is a good digging knife.

I've read about snipers using it to dig/drill a hole through cinder block to make a gun port without adverse affect to the knife or even ruining it's edge much.

Plus the sheath has a draw through carbide sharpener even if the edge does get messed up.

dougwalkabout - The Kukri is an excellent knife. I take it hunting a lot because of its ability to chop like an axe and dig like a mini spade. When carried with a good, small super sharp fixed blade or folder you are looking fairly good cutting ability wise in the field. For Military use though, it is too heavy and awkward to be humping a knife that big around.(it really lacks when it comes to the finer detailed jobs) While on duty I carry my Gerber LMF II because it is a very well rounded knife. Before I carried the Gerber I carried the SOG seal pup which is another well rounded field knife capable of any number of tasks. My biggest reason for switching to the Gerber was the sheath system, which in my opinion is second to none. My biggest beef with the LMF is that it doesn’t come in a plain edge version( I ground the serrated part out of mine)

Taurus,
1) Issue repellent is fairly close to smelless.
2) If I go for a an enemy combatant with my kukri then its either a) He's just about to step on me range or b) I have to kill him quietly because a pistol/rifle shot will bring the enemy down on me time.

Well it after 3.00am and I cannot sleep, because thinking about Taurus's interesting 3 day survival scenerio has kept me awake. I figure the only way to get some rest is to reply.

This survival situation is unique as you know in advance; how you are going to be isolated (helo crash, unhurt), that you will be pursued, a little about the site ((light forest with water), the time of year and usual weather conditions, what you will be wearing and carrying, and that the situation ends in 3 days.

Because you have this specific information you can custom construct your survival kit to address the course conditions and omit the items that are of no use to you, but may be required in a real "unknown" survival situation. An example of what I am thinking is signaling equipment (e.g. PLB, marker panels, strobe light), they would be terrific to have in a real situation but useless on this course.

Taurus I think the kit you carried on your initial course was well thought out, I have some suggestions (additions/deletions) below but they are not a large improvement over what you brought.

I think the survival sheet was a great idea to help keep you dry, it is worth the bulk.

Keep the Spark-lite and tinders, but remove the 6 wind/waterproof matches (there is a pack of back-up paper matches in the IMP, put them in the bread pouch with the dessicant to keep dry), and replace with a brightly coloured, taped closed mini-Bic lighter.

Add 4" carbon hacksaw blade for sawing and sparking using natural flint, chert or quartz. Sharpen front broken end of blade on angle for extra cutting edge.

Add Thill Bobber Light in Red colour. Good review here on Outdoor Magazine.com by SgtMike88Ret. http://outdoors-magazine.com/spip.phparticle209&var_recherche=thill&var_recherche=thill Long lasting, mini covert light for close-in work.

Remove the large Jetscream whistle and replace with already mentioned smaller cylindrical aluminum "buffalo" whistle. Modify whistle by cutting down both ends with hacksaw (removes almost 1/2 but does not effect sound), cut a shallow groove in the bottom of the aluminum body with a dremal tool and epoxy a short, thin ferro rod piece into the groove. The ferro rod off a Mag. block works well or even welding/lighter flints. Wrap electrical tape around mouthpiece so lips do not freeze in winter. I store small fishing sinkers in the hollow body of whistle, silence with cotton wool.

Add diamond knife sharpener (EZE-LAP Credit Card size or Key-Chain Sharpener, very small, be careful) or if you carry a Gerber LMF II knife then just use sharpener built-into the case.

Remove the tin-foil and replace with small aluminum loaf pan (already mentioned) but instead of folding it cut the upper rim off and form fit into empty soap dish, then cut off upper excess. I have found this aluminum cup to be a little flimsy so I reienforced it with shiny metal muffler tape to strengthen. Load the other PSK items into this inner cup.

Silence the rattling in the soap dish using cotton balls with some Polysporin added, good for cuts/scrapes and fire lighting.

Add a short piece of pencil lead, to write on inner IMP boxes to pass time, graphite may be used as lubricant for multitool.

Add bug dope (late spring in Alberta, they will be BAD), I use the OFF Deep Woods towelettes but I do not think one would last for 3 days. Better would be a very small vial of the old 100% DEET, careful that stuff will disolve plastic, as I found out in the glovebox of my old truck.

Magnetize the sewing needle and indicate the north-end, maybe add a second smaller needle.

If there is any sliver of space left in the container fill it with tough thin cord like 50lb Spectra fishing line.

It may be possible to sew extra thin line into your uniform clothing, it would beef-up the seams and be available as cordage if needed. Could maybe do the same with thin stainless steel wire (trolling wire) added to shirt cuffs/collar and trouser waist?

I do not know if this all would fit in a soap dish, do you have the size specs on this container available?

The knife is a tough decision, I like the looks/reviews of the Gerber LMF II but have never handled one (I have a hard time warming up to the serrations).

I searched the web for a 5"-6" single cutting edge, full tang, straight profile, carbon steel, scandi-grind, tactical knife with a decent sheath but could not find one?

Just my opinions FWIW.

OK now I am tired, Good Night folks,

Mike

Leigh_Ratcliffe – Don’t take what I said the wrong way, I wasn’t knocking your idea with the bug repellent, it’s just that our issued stuff (a cream almost like sun screen) does have a slight smell to it. It’s not as bad as civilian stuff smell wise, but I don’t want to underestimate the smelling power of a dog. It has such a high DEET content that it is unavailable to civvies. The only way to get it is to know a guy on the inside. I love the Kukri knives but if I can only have one I like one which can handle smaller tasks (which the Kukri lacks). I find the kukri a bit too big for my tastes while on duty (but that’s just my preference) I am sure if push comes to shove like a situ you are describing my LMF II will be an adequate throat cutter.

Swampdonkey - Sorry to have ruined your sleep but I have been awake as well trying to figure out the best way to teach this to others. If this 3 day ex goes ahead it is quite possible that the 10 day advanced course will been on the horizon. I have been told that I may be an instructor on that one too. You have some well thought ideas there dude!! I learned a lot by taking the stuff I did as a student. The only way to learn a lesson sometimes is the hard way and training exercises are the best place to do it, as you dont want to make these mistakes when the s*** is real. through my time in the Army and while hunting and hiking etc in civi land I have made enough and learnrd enough by them that I hope I can teach these new guys something usefull. You should seek out your nearest recruiting center SWAMPDONKEY, the Army needs guys like you overseas right now.

I am simply not in Taurus' league when it comes to acutally trying things. So I am not about to put things in or out of his kit. Although, I might want a few more fishing hooks, very small ones, as I know you can catch birds and other animals and not just fish.

However, my thoughts revolve solely around impproving that cup made from aluminum foil. I think a foldable piece of studier aluminum might take up a whole lot of room in that soap dish, and therefore not be a good alternative. Would some small pieces of something like coat hanger be enough to create a frame, so your cup did not fall to pieces?

I'd love to try and cram an Orikaso folding mug into said soap dish. I've used the Orikaso stuff in the past but never the mug so I'm not sure how much surface area it needs when flat.

Or you could always slip it in flat next to your water bladder...even though that sort of goes outside the bounds of the exercise rules.

Couldnt you use a metal soap dish or tobaco tin instead? Then you would have something to cook in.

Hi Taurus,

If all went as planned, you should have a PM.

Mike

Really, really fun thread!

While I own one of those mysterious soap dishes the US Submarine Service did not expect me to pack survival gear in it....

My understanding of the setup suggests to me that the point of the exercise is to have the soldier go to ground and wait. Being under observation with NVG's says the soldier had best not even try going anywhere. Constructing an effective hide, staying warm, staying hydrated and above all not getting fidgety and getting caught moving around out of boredom are the objects.

Great mental exercise!

I'm torn between asking for a post-exercise debrief and noting that discussing this might be borderline opsec disclosure.

For us survival-oriented folks the getting caught part is why this is so hard. If you aren't worried about getting caught (and killed) then getting comfortable is a great deal easier.

I haven't taken anything you said the wrong way, believe me

Also: PM refer the repellent.

unimogbert -

True, that is the hardest part of this ex. In the scenario, the Enemy is unaware of your possible presence but is actively patrolling in the area. You are not being hunted per se, but they scan the area often. If they see you then you fail, but you wont know you failed till after the exercise. On the advanced course you are being tracked to some degree. We used to do escape and evasion exercises in which you had to make it from point A to B without being caught(even if you were spotted they still had to physically catch you) In this exercise you are supposed to be a P.O.W and ALL you have is a pair of coveralls with a huge P painted on the back and boots with the laces removed.(nothing else) You only have so long to reach your safe point so you are trying to beat the clock as much as the cold. My unit hasn’t done one of these exercises in a long time as it tends to scare the public a bit too much (and because people really got hurt on these) Picture this, 3 o’clock in the morning and some farmer looks out his window to see a guy with a prisoner outfit hopping his fence and trying to dash across his field to hide behind his barn.(nothing good will come of this situation) They used to announce on the radio and stuff before these E&E exercises to prevent confusion in the civilian world but a lot of people didn’t hear about it all the same. You can imagine the chaos that caused!!

ahh the good old days.


Buy the way folks; I have been informed via a PM that the military issued bug repellant I have been talking about is for sale on eBay. No idea how the hell it got there but there it is (or what appears to be VERY close to it)

It never ceases to amaze me what shows up on that site.........

This sounds like a competition in the making. Set up a scenario similar to the one Taurus has presented. Establish the ground rules (size of soap dish, how must it be closed, etc.) and have each contestant make her or his own dish kit. It would have to be done for real (hard to judge whether a theoretical PSK would fit in a theoretical soap dish). Each entry would consist of a list of items and pictures of the items outside and inside the soap dish. Winner to be decided as the most appropriate, best fit, most inventive, etc.

Setting the rules and scenario would be a monumental thread in itself. Perhaps Taurus and the moderators could judge (a good way, Taurus to establish your evaluation standards for your exercise). Get Mr. Ritter to throw in a prize (a DR PSK, of course). I'm not a survival expert but I do earn a living by doing technical evaluations so I'd be glad to help codify the rules.

Any interest?

Ha, Nice twist.

How could you truly Judge as to what is BEST though ? You could have 10 different kits, all of which may be perfectly suited to the needs of the user. It would be a tough one to call for sure.

Besides, the only way to truly know how it will work is if the people who pack the kits actually USE them to see. That is the greatest test.

Maybe we could take Blast up on his offer and all go to Texas for three nights for one big ass ETS survival exercise. I don't think Mr. Ritter will pay for that though.....

Since a lot of people have been asking, Here is an Almost exact double of the one I used last time as a student. I will use it again as a training aid when I am the instructor to explain what was good/bad about my choices. The list is at the front of this thread somewhere.

The items layed out:

[img][IMG]http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3848/soapdisksk002ut6.th.jpg[/img][/img]


The items inside the dish:

[img][IMG]http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3521/soapdisksk003wy8.th.jpg[/img][/img]
It was a very big pain in the a** getting the lid to fully close on this.
For those who said they would pack things like large garbage bags, hard candy etc this will give you a good idea of the limits imposed by this survival exercise. Note that no items are allowed to be attached outside the case in any way.

Before you all jump on me this was the dish we were given, Yes its purple I know!! Not exactly a man color but at least you would see it if you dropped it.

If you want to be even more sadistic, try the scenario in a scifi novel I read somewhere: Four pilots and one spec-ops guy get dropped off in the middle of nowhere. The pilots' goal is to get spotted by SAR and rescued at which point they pass and get to go home. The the fifth guy's mission is to prevent the other four from being rescued for two weeks, at which point only HE passes the course.