Testing winter survival gear. By surviving winter!

Hi folks,

I'm planning on a bit of a simulation soon now that it's south of freezing here every day but before it snows too much. I want to test my survival gear in sort of worst case scenario so I know what works and what won't. Here's what I have planned. Please feel free to chime in with your thoughts as I don't want to have to do this too many times hehehe.

The scenario is that I'm ice fishing and have pulled a small sled out onto the ice. Through out the day I have moved farther and farther onto the lake to find good fishing and have stayed too long. It's getting dark and windy and starting to snow. I know that I can't get back to my vehicle before it gets dark and I forgot to mark that way point on my GPS (or the batteries are frozen). My personal sense of direction stinks so I'm going to assume I have no idea (E,S,N,or W) which direction I was going in while I was walking out onto the lake...too excited about fishing I suppose. I'm going to assume that I'll have to stay one night where I am, then pack up and try to get to shore while I have food and water (which I carry normally). I'm further going to assume I walk in the wrong direction in the morning and don't hit shore by the time it gets dark as it's still snowing and I can't see it from where I'm at, forcing me to stay another night (in my simulation I'll stay put but I'll shoot for extra calories anyhow to make sure I can prep it all with the gear I have). Then I either find the car on the 3rd day or trees where I can build proper camp while I have energy and a signal fire...sitting waiting for rescue (or the snow to stop...at which point I'd likely be 100 yards from my Jeep with my luck )

To accomplish this I'll stay 2 nights out in my parents back yard or drive way with no wood or fire beyond what I can build out of my pack. I might not be able to be picky about the temperature but I'm going to try and wait until it's 25 below (-13F) as anything less, while cold, isn't THAT cold around here...plus the colder the better as I won't be able to simulate the full wind chill a lake has to offer. I'll set up on the ground and utilize all my gear, staying out there for 2 nights and 2.5 days. I'll eat and drink only out of my pack OR drink only water melted from ice. I can't assume I'll have fish to eat as out in the wild I might not have the option. This scenario also removes the option to build a shelter from scratch, make bough beds, or use natural terrain for shelter (snow cave, felled trees, etc). In fact I won't even be able to drive tent pegs into the ground...a challenge indeed!

In the interest of science I'm willing to compromise on certain things if the alternative is giving up. Like starving if I don't have proper food to eat. I may start a fire if my stoves fail me using standard firewood...assuming I busted up the sled from the scenario to burn (though this won't be much of a fire). I may also 'obtain' some water should I not be able to melt any...then change the story to assume I came in with it and was careful not to let it freeze...I think I'm prepared enough that it won't come to that however.

The questions I'd like to answer (in general) are:

• How hard is it to set up my planned shelter with no trees or rocks or anything (even ground to put pegs in).
• Can my selected gear stand up to the cold?
• Can my selected gear stand up to the wind?
• Is my food/rations eatable in that temperature?
• Can I effectively melt water to drink and cook in?
• Will my sleeping bag/shelter system be warm enough?
• Just how useless are my batteries at that temperature?
• Is the AMK 2.0 Bivy I just bought any help in this scenario?
• What do I have which is useless (to be ditched later for weight savings).

I may add to this post between now and then as I'm doing a 2 night Survival Trek with the Boreal Institute in a couple of weeks...some of my questions may be answered...but the survival situations emulated on the Trek are VERY different from what I have laid out above. Also, the Trek assumes you're not outfitted with an insane amount of gear (like I like to be) and I'll have little more than the basics to help me out.

Again, feel free to put your 2 cents in...especially if you know how to drive aluminum tent pegs into solid ice hehehe.

In this scenario are you carrying your entire pack or just the survival gear? I know that I don't carry a full pack for day trip fishing but I do carry my small day bag. I would also be dressed in layers for he weather with possibly another light jacket for later in the evening
DAY BAG CONTENTS
1 compass
1 MRE & misc. snacks
2 bandanas
1 pair leather gloves
1 baklava
1 pocket saw
1 esbit stove 4 fuel tablets
1 U.S. canteen and cup
1 AMK bivy bag
1 multi tool
1 led flashlight
1 schrade-folding knife
10 reusable 6" zip ties
12' Para cord
I normally have a heat sheet in the bag too, but when I started to write this I opened it up to make sure I was writing a correct list and found it missing.
I would limit my test to what I would normally carry, since that is all you will realistically have.

Forget Aluminium tent pegs, get titanium pegs as they are much more durable. If you've got a Leatherman with a bit driver, you can adapt a standard 6 milimetre drill bit to fit into the bit driver. This should be able to drill into the ice just enough to insert a round section titanium peg.

What kind of tent do you have? A good geodesic type would be best. A Lightwave F2 Ultra tent weighs only 2.6Kg. These can some times be used without being pegged down especially if the fly has an additional snow skirt.
What would really be important is the insulation bewteen the ice and yourself. I would go for something like the Exped down inflatable matress (good to -40C) and a good 2Kg down bag or good synthetic such as a Snugpak softie 12 or Snugpak Antarctica for the temperatures you are envisaging.

Lithium Batteries will work down to -40C.

You may also need an axe to cut the ice to make water. You will probable need a good stove such as Primus Himalaya or MSR XGK to melt the ice.

You could use your AMK 2.0 Bivy as a vapour barrier liner if it gets really cold in conjuction with the sleeping bag.

In the scenario I could potentially have a lot with me because I'd be pulling a small sled...weight wouldn't be much of a factor. For me, I'd be well equipped simply because I like to be well equipped. It's unlikely I'd be without GPS or compass but for the sake of argument I'm assuming those have failed me (or I have)

I was assuming I'd be dressed warm in layers as I'd be stop and go walking throughout the day. Typically I'll wear the following for such a thing:

• Med weight synthetic, wicking, long johns
• Nylon wind proof pants (possibly the fleece lined kind, and waterproofed with Nikwax)
• Wool Socks
• Heavy boots with the foil lined style felt liners
• Wicking base layer of light wool or poly
• Poly shirt
• Windproof fleece jacket (waterproofed with NikWax)
• Windproof shell (covers the bum) with built in hood
• Poly glove liners
• Wool gloves or synthetic insulated mits
• Fleece head ever neck warmer
• Poly or Wool toque
• Wrap around sun glasses

I'd also be carrying at least one extra pair of glove liners, waterproof glove shells, 2 pair of extra socks (because I'll sweat...I always do), Goretex rain pants, and possibly a full change of clothes in case I get wet for some reason. I keep most of this stuff in an O.R. compression sack in my pack anyhow. It's a little heavy but nice and compact. Packed right it's easy to shed the extra weight if I don't need it all.

I don't. And that's where things get tricky. I haven't quite figured it out yet but I plan to use my Siltarp Poncho set up as an A-Frame or partial A-Frame using trekking poles (and maybe the fictional sled) as part of the structure. I need to figure out a way to anchor it all...your drill bit idea is interesting.

I'll have a space blanket ground sheet to reflect heat back and an air mattress to keep me up off the ice and eliminate heat loss by conduction.

Other than that I'll just have my sleeping bag and the AMK 2.0 Bivy...and a spare space blanket.

An uninsulated air mattress will not provide very good insulation and may actually pull more heat away from you due to convection within the matress. You should look at an insulated matress or a couple of foam pads.

If your tent can not be properly pegged down then it may become a large kite if you get strong winds. A good bivy bag might work better for short term shelter in an exposed area. If there is snow then it is fairly easy to build a quick trench shelter in combination with your tarp and bivy bag. It helps to take a small snow shovel but make sure that it has a metal rather than plastic blade as the plastic blades are not very good at digging in old/compacted snow.

You should always try to get to shore and higher ground as cold air will settle in lower areas and you will be very exposed out on a lake.

When traveling over frozen water you should also have quick access to ice picks that you can use to help pull your self out if you break through the ice. It is also important to keep your extra clothing etc. in a waterproof bag in the event that you get wet.

Hi Hacksaw,

In your scenario, the effects of windchill is not a minor issue. A tent will keep you sheltered much more efficiently than a windbreak sil tarp. A good tent will raise the air temperatue inside by anything up to 10-15C, if the air temperatue is say -15C. Using a candle latern such as the UHO candle latern will help even more to raise the inside temperature. The extra weight and bulk of the tent will be just as valuable as a using a sleeping bag.




If you want to keep weight and bulk down you could always use the following system from Alpkit. By using a very lightweight (450gm) half bag in conjuction with a down Jacket you could save on weight and bulk here on the sleeping system then make up the difference by getting a proper tent. Sometimes only a proper tent will do and good ones are very lightweight considering what they can acheive in this survival scenario.




On ice the air matress will probably require an addition pad underneath, something like a Thermarest Z-rest. This will dramatically improve the thermal resistance of the air matress for little additional weight but will be much more bulky.

Great suggestions guys. The hard truth is that the only reason I don't have a tent or bivy at the moment is that I haven't found a tent or bivy that I'm confident in (and which doesn't cost hundreds of dollars I don't have). I'd love to have a proper bivy in my pack and right now I'm weighing the pros and cons of picking up the REI bivy as the price is right. I bought the AMK bivy to see how it works as an emergency bivy. I think it will though I'm worried about condensation on the inside.

Am I the only one who loves the graphics Am_Fear_Liath_Mor puts in his posts?

Now you've got me researching R values for sleeping pads and air mattresses.

Air Mattresses can have an R Value of 1-5 depending on how well they convect inside. Mine is cheap and not rated for such things. I would guess it's better than 1.

The blue and yellow foam which is so common and popular has an R Value of about 1.36 with ultralight versions dipping down to 0.66 and 'winter' versions stretching to just above 2. Not as good as I'd have expected.

I read online that having a closed cell pad AND an air mattress provided awesome insulation...but I can't confirm that.

Of course the self inflating mattresses perform the best with down filled mattresses having R values of 8 or more...but the prices are 150 to 200 bucks.

The Thermarest RidgeRest deluxe has an R value of 3.1 and is available for around $30. Combine this with your air matress this will dramatically increase the insulation value.

http://www.thermarest.com/product_detail.aspx?pID=55&cID=3

Apparently Antarctic explorer Ben Saunders uses one with a air matress.

http://www.bensaunders.com/resources/expedition_kit.html

To get an idea of the R value of your current air matress you could compare it the thermarests on their website, typically a 2.5 cm thick matress will have about an R value of just slightly less about the same i.e 2.3
A 3.8cm thick matress is R rated at 3.2. You should be able to get a resonable idea of the R rating of your current air matress.

Mountain Equipment Coop rates the Ridge Rest at 2.6. But this is still the highest rated closed cell pad they sell...I just hate how bulky the closed cell pads are.

Cool, you bring dessert with you! I just couldn't resist! LOL

I agree with the tent and candle lanter, or even 2. Just remember to vent the tent.

Hi Hacksaw



The RidgeRest is rated at 2.6 http://www.thermarest.com/product_detail.aspx?pID=49&cID=2
The RidgeRest Deluxe is rated at 3.1 http://www.thermarest.com/product_detail.aspx?pID=55&cID=3

A few large chemical heat packs (body size), as well as hand and foot warmer packs may make life a little easier, for the addition little weight or space.
HEAT PACKS

I ALWAYS carry chemical warmers...usually end up giving them away to the unprepared.

Last January, when I went winter camping the Adirondack Mountains, I tossed 2 body warmer packs inside a homemade cloth case into the foot of my sleeping bag about 45 minutes before I got in the bag. The bag was very nice and warm, almost too warm.

the trick is keeping em sealed so the honey dosent get all over the place.

Good idea. Honey in the wrong places make a real mess!

Hi Hacksaw,

Your experiment sounds like a good test and a real adventure, Good Luck. How far away from shore do you usually ice fish? If I could I would sure try to get to shore and utilize forest cover for my camp.

I was thinking about driving tent pegs into ice and had a couple ideas.

When ice fishing I always pack slush from cutting the hole around my tip-up rig to make them stand up. Slush freezes very solid in a short time and could be used to anchour a tent peg easily.

I have also had my ice fishing hut blown across the ice and damaged. To prevent this drill/chop a hole all the way through the ice, take a one foot piece of heavy stick (or anything sturdy) and tie a rope in the middle, put the stick down the hole, turn it sideways and pull it up against the bottom of the ice with the rope through the hole to the surface; instant strong tie point. I have done this with chain also when there was a risk of having my hut stolen. Whatever you freeze in this way you will probally not recover the lower portion.

I have used ice screws in the past to salvage snowmobiles that have got through the ice, they are very strong and remove a core from the ice. The are quite light weight but not cheap at $35.00 each. Here is a link to MEC http://mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302691749&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442242435&bmUID=1195866314130

Hope this helps,

Mike

I just came back from Mountain Equipment Coop...the one place that can single handedly keep my bank account in the black.

I checked out their sleep pads. The RidgeRest is huge. MEC makes some house brand self inflating pads which are around the $40-$50 mark...pretty good.

When I came home I talked to a friend and I managed to inherit a self inflating pad for free! I'm not sure what brand it is but it knowing this friend I'm sure it cost a bundle when it was new. When I do my little test I'm going to try each by itself and both together.

I also inherited an Optimus Crux. He bought it for lightweight backpacking and immediately went back to his Omnifuel type stove...I need more friends like that!

With the fold flat design it should be a perfect swap out winter replacement for the Vargo Triad in my cooking kit. I'm looking forward to putting it head to head with the Triad on the patio in the sub zero.

One other thing that caught my eye in regards to anchoring the tarp/tent to ice....climbing ice screws. So far the ones I've found are expensive but if I can find some cheap ones, it might be a good addition when going out on the lake this winter.

A couple of guys I know went through a very similar but real life situation a few years back in the northwest Chilcotin area of British Columbia Canada. They fortunately made it out ok, but it is quite the story. I'll see if I can dig up a copy to post here of their story that one of them put in his family records for prosperity.

If you want to go the super cheap route (other then getting great stuff from your awesome friend) find a carpet store near you and get a remnent of some thick carpet padding (the foam stuff that gets placed under the carpet to make it softer). The stuff weighs a ton, but it's dirt cheap, maybe even free if you talk to the right person. A double layer of this padding will give you very nice insulation.

-Blast

What do you think provides the insulation in your pad? It isn't the stuff, but the air between the stuff.

So the above, plus a real sleeping bag, a Bivy, and a ground pad? Anything else you are planning on having?

Add in shovel (metal bladed snow shovel is best, but an E-tool or cut down garden shovel or spade is your best compromise) or coffee can/storage cannister (snow scoop/pot), some water bottles, a light stick or two, and you should be OKish. I usually go the later route, and add an esbit stove and some tea lights for warming and melting water.

The two variables you haven't given is (a) are you off the ice, and (b) how deep is the snow? On the ice, until it is VERY thick, I wouldn't risk an esbit stove, just candles. The other concern is if the snow isn't deep enough to dig a trench, you've got almost nothing to block the wind if you can't pile the snow up. If you've got the snow, trench in, and put the sled on top as a roof. But sleep light- most of them can't take a lot of weight. Whenever I build a snow trench, I put a light stick on a pole outside- keeps snowmobiliers from running me over in my sleep.

This is why you always carry something like the PSP or SOL with compass packed on top, or just a small compass, IN your jacket with you. You'd want to get to land ASAP, so you can get some windbreaks.

I'm assuming that I'd be on the lake for those two nights and that there is little snow (but it is snowing to ruin visibility). I normally carry a Gerber Gorge shovel...not great for moving a lot of snow but a good portable shovel none the less. I'll also be testing a '120 hour candle' I ordered from Best Glide.

Right now my main obstacle is effective shelter. On the shore where there are usually trees shelter is a no brainer. Things change on the lake where winds are high, and there's no nature to shelter you(unless there's deep snow). At the very least I'll have the AMK bivy and the Siltarp Poncho (which has snaps so it can be put together like a bivy sack. The sleeping bag is a The North Face Aleutian and it swallows me up nicely.

I don't expect to ever be this out of luck but you never know which is why I'm thinking about a worst case setting that I could potentially find myself in. Last week I was geocaching my Search and Rescue colleagues and we all forgot (5 GPSs) to mark the car as a way point. While we were out looking for 4 caches it got dark fast (as is normal this time of year). Had the first cache not been a stones throw away from the car, we could have had some trouble finding it again.

The scenario could also work if you were on a snow machine and broke down/ran out of gas.

Well, you'll NEED the ground pad. THat is my biggest worry in what you are trying. Those bags aren't going to do squat on ice/snow if there is no insulation under you. From now until April, I might go out without a bag, but never without a pad rolled up and attached to my pack.

In the lake scenario you are describing, I would say that getting to land or finding other kinds of shelter is critical. You need that wind break in winter, IMO. The other reason why you want to do that is becuase you usually don't find "thin earth" but you can find thin ice easily enough. (Personally, having seen holes in the ice were shanties WERE the day before, past tense, you can't get me to go out ice fishing- nuh uh!)

LOL. Thin ice isn't thin for long here. The lakes are already plenty thick to walk on. It won't be long until there are several feet of ice.

Excellent Advice Ironraven,

I carry a tough telescopic show shovel on both my work and personal snowmobiles, a shovel regularly gets me out of trouble (e.g. shovel your way through lake slush to free the snowmobile).

Two years ago I rolled a very large heavy snowmobile (Ski-doo Scandic Super Wide Track) on a steep hillside and it ended up wedged on it's side against a tree. The snowmobile was heavily loaded with gear which I removed, but even with all my body weight I could not flip it back on to the track. So with a compact metal shovel I dug a large 3 foot deep sloping hole into the snow under the machine and used gravity to drop the machine into the hole, then I drove out. My other option was to use a come-along winch but it was in the underseat compartment and was difficult to access due to the tree.

A shovel is also great for piling up slush to freeze-in anchor points (keeps your mitts dry too).

Good idea about marking your snow trench, it would be awful to survive a bad experience only to be crushed by a resucuers snowmobile.

I agree with you about getting to land and shelter ASAP, surviving on the open ice would be very tough.

Mike

HI,

I agree with the need for a ground pad, one that has some type of insulation. I learned this lesson first-hand last year.

I was winter camping with our youth group last February, we were in a small forest opening, -28*c with very little wind. We had all the required gear being; double walled canvas tent, ground sheets on top of the snow, Thermarest pads, 4 layer artic down sleeping bags, but no source of heat generation once the naptha Coleman lantern was turned off.

It took a while to warm the sleeping bag up but soon it was OK and I went to sleep. In the middle of the night I woke up and the lower half of my body was very cold, I then realized that I had partly rolled off the Thermarest pad and the sleeping bag was now on top of the ground sheet with the snow underneath. I was not wet but heat transfer by conduction had me very chilled. Once I got back on the Thermarest pad I warmed up quickly and slept till morning.

Mike

The Boy Scout winter camping training (called OKPIC - I haven't taken it yet, but have talked with lots who have) suggests using the pink foam building insulation. Cut out the shape you want. Cut it into strips wide enough to handle (1-1.5') and then use duct tape to reconnect them accordian-style, so it will all fold up moderately compact (as compact as it gets).

If you're looking for a great winter tent (3-season tents), check out the Alps Mountaineering Vertex or Taurus tents. Make sure to get the Taurus with aluminum poles.

About the best deal in a 4-season tent I've seen is the Eureka Assault Outfitter.

If I were going to make my own I'd use something hard core like Dow Thermax insulation. It's foil backed, glass reinforced, and has an R value of 6.5 per inch...you can build awesome shelters out of it.

Assembling a pad the way KenK suggests using foil or duct tape a 6 foot long, 20" wide pad out of 0.5 inch foam would fold to 6"x6"x20". But there's no way that would be practical to carry. I'd be better off buying a Thermarest Z-Lite pad.

I've been constantly shopping for tents and bivy bags and a 4 season tent is way out of my price range...I don't think there is such a thing as an inexpensive 4 season tent. Bivy's are looking much better for this as a 4 season bivy is not much more than a standard bivy...and most standard bivys seem to be fairly well suited to standing up to winter. It's a shame that US Military issue bivys are camo as there is a large number of Goretex bags on eBay for less than $40.

I have to keep reminding myself that this is NOT camping. I don't need to be completely comfortable...just not hypothermic, frost bitten, dehydrated, or injured. For my personal style I'd rather be equipped to handle many different situations fairly well instead of being equipped to handle only a specific few very well.

Hi Hacksaw,

It is common to see foam insulation (usually Stryofoam SM) used as seat cushions in ice huts and on camping chairs. It also makes a very warm "toilet seat" and is what we have in both the outhouse at our cabin and portable "thunder box" for remote truck camping.

We have tried sitting on it while on the deer stand but it makes a loud "squeak" when you move on it. Standing on a piece while ice fishing helps heep your feet warm.

If you cut a hole through the ice and want to use the same hole the next day (for fishing or water collection) put a piece of thick stryofoam in the hole and cover it over with loose snow. Unless it is really cold overnight the hole will usually be unfrozen the next day.

Mike

Hi Hacksaw,

I've just looked up the specification for the The North Face Aleutian Sleeping Bag, which is rated at -7C, which is a 1545gm synthetic bag . I don't think this is going to warm enough for the temperatures you have indicated. The -7C or 20F appears to be the extreme temperature range indicated on the US TNF website information. The comfort range is 2C on the UK websites. i.e just above freezing. I could be wrong but the TNF website doesn't appear to indicate what temperature the -7C refers to, whether this is the comfort or extreme rating. If it is the extreme rating then this would be the temperature where there is a risk of cold weather injury for the user.

http://www.thenorthface.com/opencms/opencms/tnf/gear.jsp?site=NA&model=AZG7

If your expecting -15C with possible windchill effects combined wtih inadequate wind breaks from the sil poncho tarp, real temperature effects could be approaching -25C in a moderate wind i.e. 15 to 20 mph. You could be risking a cold weather injury.

You may also have to come up with some novel ways to keep your gas cartridge stove working at these temperatures as well. You will need to ensure that the gas cartridge does not become chilled or the stove may begin to stop working even when the cartridge seems to be still 3/4 full.

I'm a hot sleeper so I typically buy my bags a bit cooler than I expect to be out in. Having something over the bag (any shelter or even the AMK bivy) will increase the effectiveness of the bag too. The bag is new and hasn't been tested in the cold yet but by my standards it's fairly heavy (physically too...It weighs 3 lbs). I too have been trying to find out if the -7 is a comfort rating or not...seems like a comfort rating but I haven't been able to confirm. It's all subjective anyhow...no two companies use the same tests.

Reviews like this one suggest that it's much warmer than advertised...though I've read reviews that indicate the opposite too. One thing that is consistent in the reviews is that it's a top quality bag.

As for the fuel cans I'm going to experiment with using chemical hand warmers under the concave base of the can and keeping the can in my sleeping bag at night.

Is carpet pading a sponge??? Will it absorb moisture?

SBRaider,

That's a good question. I've used carpet padding on the ground in our back yard and also tentless car-camping on a few cold (40-50's) nights without a problem. They were pretty dry nights except for some dew.

Okay, just tested a chunk in the sink. Yep, it sucks up the water. Thank's for the warning!

I guess I'll just turn it into a comfy cat bed. Now, where did I put that bear trap...

-Blast

Hey Blast,
You could put the soaked carpet pad cat bed, next to a old electric heater, with several bare wires. A catnip mouse under the wires...... Well you know what will happen! Poof


Relax folks, this is just a joke.

All foam pads are sponges unless they are covered with something vapor tight.

Well, the roadkill scenario is mostly during practice. During the real thing, I'd probably have out a couple of them, or a strobe if I had one with me.

Nothing like being in a snow-based shelter, while it is snowing, in the middle of a snowy field to help the SAR team not see you. :P

The way I defeat that is simple- I use a packcloth bag cover (homemade) in summer to keep the outside of the bag clean and mostly dry in my hammock (pine sap sucks). In winter, I stuff my pad down in there with bag. If it all one peice, you might roll over completely, but squirm off.

This winter, I'm thinking I'm going to try doing my hammock, about 12" off the ground, with an A-framed tarp that has snow piled on it. It's worth an experiment.

I have not slept in a hammock since I was a kid, but I have a new Hennessy Hammock on order now, I was not thinking of using it in the winter though. Without added non-compressed insulation I read that they were very cold to sleep in when it was cold outside.

I have done the snow quinzee (sp) camping with my old Scout Troop, after the weekend we parked a snowmobile on top of it; it had frozen very solid.

Good idea about putting the sleeping pad in a sack with your sleeping bag.

Mike

I've been SO tempted to get the hammock. The lake scenario is the only reason I've held back. If I'm confident I could make it a couple of nights on the lake, I may get the hammock as everywhere else it's a viable way to go.

Not all foam pads are sponges.

Open cell foam pads will soak up a lot of water but closed cell foam pads do not and generally offer better insulation and durability.

I have used the same yellow evazote pad during the winter for the nearly 20 years. It is a bit dirty but still in one piece and does not absorbe water.

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442094579&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302701645&bmUID=1196015801591

I would recommend a test trip in a more wind free location before committing to the open lake scenario. Test your tent, sleeping pad & Bag and get a feel for what cold weather camping is like. Just a thought.

"No, I am not Bear Grylls, but I stayed at a Holiday Express Inn last night and Bear was there too!"

LOL widget, I like that!

Mike

No one ever seems to mention that multiple-layer, laminated Reflectix insulation. I've never used it for sleeping on, just to line a lawn chair while sitting around a fire on a cool evening. It sure makes a lot of difference there.

So, has anyone ever tried sleeping on it?

Sue

That's exactly what this is widget. A test run in the back yard before I have to do the real thing.

I've recently discovered the Blizzard Bags and I'm tempted to order one...would be the perfect scenario for one...especially if I never truly figure out how to anchor stuff to ice.

Thanks Mike, I was wondering if someone would notice that!