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#255956 - 01/29/13 12:44 AM Brazil nightclub fire...article
Jolt Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Maine
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/27/world/public-fire-safety/index.html

This is probably all common sense stuff for most people on this site, but it bears reviewing. Of course, when it comes to "crowded public gatherings" the best way to stay safe is to avoid such situations in the first place...but for those who enjoy that kind of atmosphere it may not be realistic.
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The rhythm is gonna get you...and if it's v-tach or v-fib, the results will be shocking!

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#255971 - 01/29/13 03:49 AM Re: Brazil nightclub fire...article [Re: Jolt]
Roarmeister Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 09/12/01
Posts: 960
Loc: Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Jolt
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/27/world/public-fire-safety/index.html

This is probably all common sense stuff for most people on this site, but it bears reviewing. Of course, when it comes to "crowded public gatherings" the best way to stay safe is to avoid such situations in the first place...but for those who enjoy that kind of atmosphere it may not be realistic.


You can't always protect yourself from obstinate law breaking. The club in question had 1 exit, no fire alarm, no sprinklers, few extinguishers and the band lit pyrotechnics on a stage that had foam acoustic insulation. http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/only-one-exi...d-231-1.1132258
Eerily similar to the Rhode Island night club fire of 2003. I am involved in a building inspections association and believe me, this topic comes up a lot. Regulations, inspections and building codes have been further pressed for adhereance throughout N/A jurisdictions. A club in my local city has been cited several times for similar safety violations but the fines just aren't big enough to combat the blatent disreguard for the laws already in place. One hopes that they don't have to face the loved ones of the dead to actually figure out their culpability.

A couple of things to note regarding human behaviour:
0. Common sense is a misnomer and doesn't exist.
1. People gravitate to escape out the route they came in, even to the point of ignoring and running past obvious exits in favour of their memory of how they got into the building.
2. In an emergency, people will seek out their family/loved one FIRST before seeking the exit. This is especially true of mothers with children. People often delay their exit until they have also found their coats or personal belongings.
3. People follow the lead of others and often behave much like cattle during a stampede.
4. It takes quite a while for people to realize a serious situation and the danger it poses. During this period, people will often react slowly to exit and be relatively calm but as panic develops around them they also react much quicker.

A couple of the ways you can protect yourself:
A. Check out the fire exit locations as soon as you enter a new building. A 5-second scan can safe your life.
B. In the event of a fire, get out first, don't worry about finding your significant other(s), don't think about grabbing your coats - leave now. When the coast is clear then locate your friends. Yes, I know that sounds cruel but the time wasted in finding each other decreases your safety dramatically.
C. Unless the fire is the size of a wastebasket, forget get using an extinqhisher. Raise the alarm FIRST, then exit safely.
D. Walk, don't run. Panic begats panic.

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#255981 - 01/29/13 03:18 PM Re: Brazil nightclub fire...article [Re: Roarmeister]
Jolt Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Roarmeister

A couple of things to note regarding human behaviour:
0. Common sense is a misnomer and doesn't exist.
1. People gravitate to escape out the route they came in, even to the point of ignoring and running past obvious exits in favour of their memory of how they got into the building.
2. In an emergency, people will seek out their family/loved one FIRST before seeking the exit. This is especially true of mothers with children. People often delay their exit until they have also found their coats or personal belongings.
3. People follow the lead of others and often behave much like cattle during a stampede.
4. It takes quite a while for people to realize a serious situation and the danger it poses. During this period, people will often react slowly to exit and be relatively calm but as panic develops around them they also react much quicker.

A couple of the ways you can protect yourself:
A. Check out the fire exit locations as soon as you enter a new building. A 5-second scan can safe your life.
B. In the event of a fire, get out first, don't worry about finding your significant other(s), don't think about grabbing your coats - leave now. When the coast is clear then locate your friends. Yes, I know that sounds cruel but the time wasted in finding each other decreases your safety dramatically.
C. Unless the fire is the size of a wastebasket, forget get using an extinqhisher. Raise the alarm FIRST, then exit safely.
D. Walk, don't run. Panic begats panic.


Good points about human behavior...factors like the above are why I feel unsafe in large crowds, particularly in places where there are limited escape routes (like nightclubs!). As far as the issue of people trying to find each other before exiting, that's something that has bothered me on planes with the increasing instances of families being split up between different parts of the plane rather than getting seats together. Especially if one or more children is not sitting with one of the parents (there's less of a problem if each parent is with one or two kids but the two groups aren't together). In the event of an emergency, the parents are naturally going to try to find their kids before exiting the plane--impeding not only their own safe evacuation but also that of everyone else, which is completely unacceptable. (Besides, who wants to sit next to someone else's unsupervised child on a four-hour flight?) But I digress...
_________________________
The rhythm is gonna get you...and if it's v-tach or v-fib, the results will be shocking!

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#255989 - 01/29/13 05:59 PM Re: Brazil nightclub fire...article [Re: Jolt]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
There are good, sound reasons why parents search out their children and try to protect them first. In general, that behavior insures there will be a next generation and keeps the population growing, even though there are specific situations (like exiting a plane) where it doesn't work as well. I suspect new Moms would have some useful insights on this phenomenon....
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#255991 - 01/29/13 06:53 PM Re: Brazil nightclub fire...article [Re: hikermor]
Jolt Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: hikermor
There are good, sound reasons why parents search out their children and try to protect them first. In general, that behavior insures there will be a next generation and keeps the population growing, even though there are specific situations (like exiting a plane) where it doesn't work as well. I suspect new Moms would have some useful insights on this phenomenon....


Not saying there's anything wrong with that...there isn't! My problem is with creating situations where those instincts become a danger instead of a help, like separating families on planes instead of having them sit together where the parents can get their kids out without their efforts preventing others from getting to safety. What I was saying is unacceptable is people holding up everyone else's evacuation, not the fact that they're trying to protect their kids!


Edited by Jolt (01/29/13 06:58 PM)
_________________________
The rhythm is gonna get you...and if it's v-tach or v-fib, the results will be shocking!

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#255993 - 01/29/13 09:04 PM Re: Brazil nightclub fire...article [Re: Jolt]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Horrible tragedy. I can't imagine having to deal with the aftermath and all of those bodies. The scene around the exit and in the restrooms...I shudder to think about it.

One aspect of the incident that caught my attention early on was the tidbit about the fire extinguisher not working when the flames first started in the ceiling. I don't know if there was any training beforehand, but it wouldn't surprise me if the safety pin wasn't pulled out first. What if this tragedy hinged on something as simple as that? And if it was truly empty, that's inexcusable.

Not sure there's a whole lot that can be done by one of the nightclub customers beforehand to avoid this tragedy. Was there really only one exit or only one that wasn't locked/chained? Thinking back to when I was going to clubs, you're not going to leave your friends to go scout out whether the exits all were all accessible. For one thing, you'd probably be accused of trying to let people in from outside if you started opening exit doors and get booted from the club or lose your place near the stage.

So, short of carrying a smokehood and fire axe to the club with you, I'm not sure what else a clubgoer might've done besides staying low and trying to keep your wits.

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#255997 - 01/29/13 10:47 PM Re: Brazil nightclub fire...article [Re: Jolt]
JBMat Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 745
Loc: NC
From what I read, no alarms, one exit. Tragedy waiting to happen.

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#256021 - 01/30/13 06:06 PM Re: Brazil nightclub fire...article [Re: Jolt]
ILBob Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 776
Loc: Northern IL
One of the common issues with incidents of this sort is stupidity coupled with alcohol and/or other drugs.

The use of pyrotechnics indoors is always hazardous and especially so when engaged in by drugged up roadies with little or no training .

I avoid bars and other places that large numbers of drunks and druggies hang out. nothing good ever comes of hanging around them.


Edited by ILBob (01/30/13 06:09 PM)
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Warning - I am not an expert on anything having to do with this forum, but that won't stop me from saying what I think. smile

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