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#162080 - 01/09/09 06:26 AM Chlorine Dioxide Tablets for Crypto? NOPE!
Troglodyte007
Unregistered


Chlorine Dioxide Tablets for Crypto? NOPE!
HERE

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#162089 - 01/09/09 08:08 AM Re: Chlorine Dioxide Tablets for Crypto? NOPE! [Re: ]
scafool Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
So I am still good by boiling the water for tea?
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May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.

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#162094 - 01/09/09 09:21 AM Re: Chlorine Dioxide Tablets for Crypto? NOPE! [Re: scafool]
Troglodyte007
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: scafool
So I am still good by boiling the water for tea?


Boiling and UV devices (For the PSK or BOB, I only know of the SteriPen; HERE ) are the only viable ways to be maximally safe from all waterborne micro-organisms.

It seems fine filtration can never be too fine; viruses WILL get through. Iodine can kill some pathogens, but usually takes quite a while, and can only merely reduce the numbers of other pathogen species.

Fine filtration AND iodine or chlorine dioxide can be effective, at least in theory. But if one organism is known to be resistant to iodine, it is logical to assume so might be another, perhaps one not yet discovered or not yet fully understood. Also, what we now know about certain microrganisms is not necessarily definitive and universal knowledge, as individual populations of microorganisms might for whatever reason (i.e. global warming; pollution having an unnatural nutritional or hormonal effect; genetic manipulation and release into the environment) mutate and experience accelerated evolutionary changes making them more chem-resistant, smaller, and/or more able to conform/deform during filtration. Survival of the fittest, Baby!

I am fond of my little bottle of Polar Pure as it is so self-contained and perpetual. Too bad it must be replaced.



Edited by Troglodyte007 (01/09/09 09:38 AM)

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#162103 - 01/09/09 11:50 AM Re: Chlorine Dioxide Tablets for Crypto? NOPE! [Re: ]
Doug_Ritter Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 2198
I am not so sure I would give too much credibility to a single report such as this given that Chlorine Dioxide tabs have passed the extremely stringent EPA tests. Note also the date and it seems this has suddenly turned up all over after being publicized by placement on the Steri-Pen site. In any case, I'm researching this further.
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#162105 - 01/09/09 01:53 PM Re: Chlorine Dioxide Tablets for Crypto? NOPE! [Re: Doug_Ritter]
falcon5000 Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 662
I agree about not trusting one report much less one that is posted on the Steripen site. I will say this (even though I am a strong supporter of steripen) that UV light has been extremely effective through many of my industrial career paths using ultra high pure water systems including (Lucent Technologies) and Nasa and that was another one of my decisions over the Miox.

On the other defense MSR and katadyn are very well established companies and I think that their products would work providing you wait the 4 hours. I have some micropurs as back up for the steripen but I haven't had any failures on mine and this last trip I went on ran up some good lamp time on the unit. I will be anxious to see what Doug pulls up with more updated accurate reports. One thing I know is I've never gotten sick off a steripen yet. As long as the lamp and circuit is good, I can run it with or without batteries in daylight for an indefinite amount of time. No need to carry salt,wood and tinder or tons of tablets. But tablets have there advantages as well too.
_________________________
Failure is not an option!
USMC Jungle Environmental Survival Training PI 1985

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#162111 - 01/09/09 02:19 PM Re: Chlorine Dioxide Tablets for Crypto? NOPE! [Re: ]
Safari Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Finland
Chlorine dioxide is not 100% effective against crypto
Comparing the efficacy of chlorine, ch...outhern Brazil.


Ozone is effective and acts 3200 times faster than Chlorine dioxide Ozone Food Sanitation

But I don't know about "portable" Ozone generators... New market for somebody? shocked

UV is effective against crypto
Pulsed-UV light inactivation of Cryptosporidium parvum.

Inactivation credit of UV radiation for ...ater: a review.

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#162137 - 01/09/09 05:28 PM Re: Chlorine Dioxide Tablets for Crypto? NOPE! [Re: Safari]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Ozone is readily generated by electric arc in the atmosphere. Collecting and concentrating it not quite as easy.

UV may not be as effective in water with significant turbidity. If light can't pass through it so well, neither will the UV.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#162145 - 01/09/09 06:00 PM Re: Chlorine Dioxide Tablets for Crypto? NOPE! [Re: benjammin]
scafool Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
I will be interested in what Doug finds out.
In the mean time I will keep drinking tea when I camp.

If I was where I had no way to treat the water and risked dying of thirst, I would drink the water and risk just getting sick instead of dying.

Even if the bleach tablets do not kill all the Crypto it takes care of almost everything else, and I would rather have a treatable case of Crypto than be dead.

Note that Crypto usually takes a week and a half to hit you and usually only lasts a couple of weeks.
(It is harder on kids, the old, and aids victims.)

I would worry more about stuff like Tularemia, Dysentery and Cholera.


Edited by scafool (01/09/09 06:03 PM)
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May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.

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#162158 - 01/09/09 06:40 PM Re: Chlorine Dioxide Tablets for Crypto? NOPE! [Re: ]
Jeff_M Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 665
Loc: Northwest Florida
I think we all know nothing is always 100% effective when it comes to sanitation. Fortunately, mere exposure to these organisms isn't always clinically significant. It generally takes more than a single cyst or bacterium entering your gut to make you sick. It may take hundreds, or more, and even then you may still not get sick. The object here is to reduce your odds as much as you can.

General sanitation also plays a part. A large percentage of supposed back-country gastrointestinal "waterborne illness" is most likely fecal-oral or other types of infection by routes involving the hands, cook wear, water bottles, clothing, foodstuffs, etc., and not the water supply.

I either don't worry about it overmuch, and trust my luck and iodine crystals or filter, or I double up and use both when I am feeling doubtful about my water source. I also try to let the iodine work overnight, for maximum contact time, then filter it. I have a large "dirty water" bag for this, then I filter it directly into my water bladder and bottles.

For anyone who is interested in really safe water, here is what our DMAT team uses:

Jeff

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#162189 - 01/09/09 09:43 PM Re: Chlorine Dioxide Tablets for Crypto? NOPE! [Re: Jeff_M]
KenK Offline
"Be Prepared"
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 2208
Loc: NE Wisconsin
You need to read those studies VERY carefully.

The first one listed by Troglodyte007 gives a detailed description of the methodology used. The second study is only an abstract, so we don't know what the methodology was. There is a 3rd study out there that some tru to use to prove that chlorine dioxide and MIOX are ineffective, but there is a catch.

In the studies they take a water sample with a relatively high concentration of "bugs", add one dose of MSR MIOX solution, stir, wait 4 hours, and then test for the number of bugs still viable. The problem is, that is NOT the method recommended in the MRS Miox User Manual.

In short, the user manual tells you to use test strips to check the MIOX dosed water for sufficient residual (left-over) chlorine before you let the treated water sit for the prescribed period of time. The idea is to put enough MIOX solution in until at least a little residual chlorine is left over after killing the bugs. The MSR Miox protects users by using those purple test strips to make sure at least 4 PPM of residual chlorine remains.

If you treat water with a high concentration of organics (bugs) with just one dose of MIOX solution, and don't use the test strips, the chlorine gets used up before it kills all the bugs, thus it is not effective. Its not rocket science.

The author of the article adds just one dose into sewer water and that's it. No checking for residual chlorine. Of course it won't work.

By the way, the MSR MIOX instructions say that if you don't want to use the test strips you should add 4 doses of solution to be safe. They also suggest that you can use the test strips just the first time you use water from a particular source, than then you may not need to use them after that. Still, they warn to either use the test strips for each new water source, OR use 4X dosage. Lots of folks who are using "familiar" water sources just add a 2X dosage to be safe.

BTW, I've been told that someone once went all over the country gathering ambient Giardia and/or Crypto conentrations from natural lakes and streams all over the U.S. I'l love to see that. The point is that it takes more than one of these oocysts to cause an issue. If the efficiveness in 10 minutes is, say, only 90%. If you start with a solution with only maybe 20 oocysts, that means, the odds are that teh purification will be completely sufficient. I think Doug mentions that in his discussion of the MIOX at equipped.org.

Ken K.

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