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#122764 - 02/06/08 03:30 AM Spears
Raspy Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 351
Loc: Centre Hall Pa
Spears

Whenever anyone mentions using a knife as a spear point. You always get one or more ranting and raving about only a low-grade moron with no idea of survival would tie his or her only knife to the end of a stick and throwing it away. Of course on the first throw the animal hit will blithely run off with the knife never to be found again. Always possibility, slim but a lot of that depends on your tracking skills. Or else being that stupid and totally incompetent miss completely. Where upon the knife will unerringly seek out and find the nearest large rock and be shattered into fragments. All of which will be to small to be of any other use. While the odds say you won’t lose or damage the blade on the first throw eventually things will catch up and something will happen.

But then who among us doesn’t carry at least one form of cutting back up or 2 or even a dozen. So that shoots the single blade part in the butt.

What most of the detractors fail to realize is there are 2 distinctly different styles or types of spears. Both function and are used in two completely different manors. These spear types are the fighting and throwing spears. Actually there is a third type. That is the fishing spear. Because their design of their point is so radically different most knife blades would not work very well in this role

The fighting spear falls into the class of polearms. The style of use is to use it as a primary stabbing weapon but also as a slashing weapon or club. In extreme cases it can be thrown its balance and weight are all wrong for doing this. This type of spear would be an accepted use for your “one and only blade”. The reason for making this type is to give added reach. This type of spear was a minimum of 6 feet long. Typically 8 to 12 feet long with some approaching 20 feet. The idea of these was to keep some rude barbarian 3 or 4 feet of metal called a sword in his hand far enough away to prevent him from performing major surgery on the spear user. Our use in survival situations is in essence the same. To keep something hostile with the intent of damaging our precious hide be it man or beast farther away than the 3 to 6 inches or perhaps a bit more than possible with a knife in hand. You can always remove the knife from the pole to accomplish other close up tasks.

While I don’t recommend picking a fight with a grizzly. If such a confrontation does happen I’d rather do it with a spear that gives me a much longer reach than up close with a knife in hand. True it isn’t much but it does improve the odds slightly. This could be just enough that it might make the difference. But the likely case is that you have leg snared, entangled or some how trapped something larger and meaner than a rabbit. Before it can become tonight’s dinner. You will need to dispatch it. Sure you can leap right in there and slice its throat with your knife. I’ll guarantee a deer will put a serious hurtin’ on you before all is said and done. But that would be nothing compared to what an elk or moose would do to you. What about dealing with a bobcat or fox? Have you ever seen what a badger or coon can do? No thank you very much. Let us not even speak of the damage a wild pig can do to a person. It sure would be nice to stand back 5 or 6 feet and reach in with a knife on a stick to do the job. And with a few tweaks accept the charge of a boar.

Throwing spears or more correctly a javelins are a completely different breed. They are generally 4 to 6 feet in length and much thinner and lighter. They are also balanced for good flight characteristics. Their purpose is to be hurled and hopefully poke holes in some distant object. In this case a game animal. Because of the smaller size you can carry a couple for follow up shots.

Here is where you don’t want to use your only knife or for that matter any quality knife. To begin with the temper is all wrong. The higher temper that makes a quality knife take and hold a good edge makes it far to brittle to withstand the shocks from the impact of throwing. Even if the normal strikes do not cause damage eventually you will miss and strike something hard like a rock. The end result will be a broken or damaged knife. While it won’t shatter into dust as the doomsayers tout. It will be broken. The pieces while still usable to an extent. They won’t be as efficient or as easy to use as the original.

So what say we put a point on our javelin in the wild. At the most primitive level you can always trim a tapered point with your good knife. Baring having a knife [you were flying commercial] you can grind a point by rubbing a stick against a convenient rock. But with a knife you can even get fancy and even carve small multiple barbed points for spear fishing. These crude and simple points will last a toss or two before they need re-sharpening.

The next step up the ladder is the fire hardening. How to do this will be covered at the end. This is a stronger point that will last longer and be able to be made somewhat sharper. Still it lacks a great deal to be desired. But may be the best that is available to you under the conditions you face.

Evolving further up the scale we come to the stone point. These can be much stronger and even sharper. But can be brittle and shatter. But as always there is a fly in the ointment. First of all is the availability of suitable rock. Flint is the best choice. Then you need the time, skill and tools to fashion an acceptable point. Well if our primitive ancestors could fashion these points and the crude tools to make them from what Mother Nature supplied. We should be able to do so also with the proper training. And you thought this was going to be easy.

At the top of the heap is the true worked metal point. Not only can it be a sharper more penetrating point. The edges can be sharpened to provide a slicing action once embedded into a target. It will also retain the point and edges longer. Barbs can likewise be incorporated so it doesn’t fall out easily. The slicing action once inside a wound will increase the amount of damage bringing the game down quicker.

In a long, long-term situation you can eventually construct a method of refining metal from raw ore. Then build a forge to shape it. This just won’t meet your immediate needs in a survival situation. You will simply have to bring it with you.

If you are in a plane crash or are in the situation because of a stuck or disabled vehicle you will have a source of metal on hand. With these sources of supply you can fashion crude points and cutting edges. While tools would be extremely helpful in this with a little perseverance, shear brute force and a touch of ingenuity such lacks can be overcome.

Adding pre-fashioned points for fishing, fighting and throwing spear points is a viable option for all but the smallest of kits.

Fishing points can be found in almost any Mart type store. Usually Chinese made. They come with a tapered ferrule to mate with a pole one side and 3 to 5 thin barbed points on the other side. Made specifically for frog and fish sticking and retrieval. While cheap and junky they will function. It is a fair to good idea for inclusion in a BOB.

A pre-formed fighting spear point because of its size, weight and specialized nature would rate at best having only one if any in a kit. While I earlier urged the fashioning and use of a fighting spear a dedicated point carried to fashion one might be a bit much to carry along because of its specialized nature and single use function. There are many other ways of using other multi-function blades you are carrying to improvise one. Although the Cold Steel Bushman and its mini version is designed to operate as a functional knife with the easy option of converting into a spear.

For throwing points the first requirement is that it has little to no hardening. Because of the impact of repeatedly slamming into even relatively soft targets would cause a high hardness blade to break. The softer blade will tend to bend rather than snap. As the Murphy says you will eventually miss and hit something hard like a rock. A bent blade of this softer steel can be straightened. Using one rock as an anvil and another as a hammer you can pound it into something near to the original configuration.

Due to the lack of hardening you will probably never get it shaving sharp. Although I had a friend that was a whiz at sharpening anything. I have even seen him take a general-purpose table service butter knife and put an edge on it that would shave hairs. Personally I never had that much patience. But no matter how sharp you do get it. It will never hold the edge for very long.

The next set of features you will want that it is relatively narrow, double edged and have as sharp a point as possible. The reasons are that when you strike a game animal you want it to penetrate as deeply as possible. That way it is more likely to reach and cause damage to the internal organs. The double edge is so that as the animal moves after the hit the movement of the blade will slice more tissue causing greater and more rapid blood loss. Therefore the game dies quicker so you don’t have to track it as far. So there is less of a chance of loosing it. Also the greater blood loss will make it easier to track.

There are 2 basic methods of attaching a point to the shaft Sure you can simply strap any knife or point to the side of a shaft. It will work if in an extreme hurry but not very well. The balance is seriously compromised.

The first real method is if the point incorporates a socket in place of a handle. The socket on such point is normally tapered with the narrow end at the blade base. You can use the edges on the point to taper the end of the shaft to fit the socket. But such a socket adds bulk and weight to the package. While you can store some gear inside the socket for packing it does add complications.

The second way is simpler and much less bulky travel package. You split the end of the shaft to the depth of the knife handle. Or to be more appropriate the tang without any covering handle material. Although if you have a saw blade this opening can be sawn rather than split as it will make for a stronger connection. As there is much less of a chance of the split propagating further down the shaft. The handle is then inserted into the split. Then the split is tightly bound around the handle. To accomplish this you need a knife with a flat thin handle. Or as what is referred to in the catalogs as a skeletonized handle. One trick to make for better penetration with this style is to trim the end of the shaft. You trim an angled cut from the first part of the binding down to where the blade emerges from the shaft. This allows the shaft to more easily penetrate the target following the blade. If left squared off the ridge can stop penetration as the shaft begins.

The perfect commercial knives for this purpose are throwing knives. They have intentionally low tempers to withstand the impacts from throwing. Most designs are double edged. Typically the handle is the same thickness as the blade. Essentially the handle is a shaped tang. What you don’t want get the top of the line models either. In fact what you really want are the cheapest ones available. The reason for getting the cheap ones are not only to save money you will be using them to throw away.

You can even go the DIY route and make your own. Take 1/4, 3/16 or as thin as 1/8-inch sheet steel. Trim out any shape and size you desire. You can then sharpen the edges. This can be ground or cut. Cutting can be as high tech as a band saw or as simple as a hacksaw. Final shape and sharp can be done with files. You can heat treat to a low hardness or leave as is.

You either are now considering a method to make or have the means of using spears as part of your wilderness arsenal. Good luck on you choices and decision.

Fire Hardening

As a foolish youth I read in books of outdoor lore about fire hardening spear points. Most just left it at that mention. A few such authors even talked about charring the wood and very little else. With typical youthful enthusiasm I thought that would be neat and tried it. Yeah Right. Results were very disappointing to say the least.

First such treatment burnt the point off. The charred wood was even softer than the green wood started out. Even after scraping the char off of it the tip was still softer than to begin with. A real big time bummer. Which is a very good reason to try things out before depending upon them. All in all, it was a total waste of time and resources.

I figured that those authors were idiots full of Barbara Streisand. Or like so many so-called experts copy and re-copy the work of those that came before. Doing all this without the knowledge behind the truth. In many of these cases in the various re-dos either editors or the authors change a word or two to make it read better. Finally ending up with something completely different, often wrong and on occasion even dangerous.

Well a few years ago I heard a little different story on how fire hardening actually works. Experimenting time again.

SUCCESS! It really works. Now don’t get me wrong this technique does not make a point in soft wood or even hard wood that is stronger than steel or sharper than a flint point. But it is better than a carved wooden point alone. This process only works on green wood not dead dry wood.

What it does is boils the water that is in the sap. This does 2 things. It dries the wood that toughens it to start. It also crystallizes the minerals that were in the sap forming almost a varnish that increases the hardness of the point.

The trick of doing this is you bake rather than burn the wood. Instead of putting the point into the fire you slowly rotate it above the coals. The final appearance it like a well-roasted turkey. Golden brown not black it takes time so don’t rush it. If it starts to turn black it is starting to char. Stop before it is ruined. Trying to speed things up by plunging it into the fire will result in a wasted mess.

Hopefully this will save some others from falling into the same misconceptions I labored under for years.
_________________________
When in danger or in doubt
run in circles scream and shout
RAH

And always remember TANSTAAFL

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#122768 - 02/06/08 03:48 AM Re: Spears [Re: Raspy]
CANOEDOGS Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 1853
Loc: MINNESOTA

WOW--alot of real good information..i hope i never have
to use it..

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#122776 - 02/06/08 04:57 AM Re: Spears [Re: CANOEDOGS]
KG2V Offline

Veteran

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1371
Loc: Queens, New York City
Yes - the two types of spear are often diferentiated by using the terms "spear" and "Pike" - That said, a true pike is different than a fighting spear
_________________________
73 de KG2V
You are what you do when it counts - The Masso
Homepage: http://www.thegallos.com
Blog: http://kg2v.blogspot.com

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#122778 - 02/06/08 05:11 AM Re: Spears [Re: Raspy]
Taurus Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 458
Loc: Northern Canada

Quote:
Where upon the knife will unerringly seek out and find the nearest large rock and be shattered into fragments. All of which will be to small to be of any other use.



Well put. Otherwise called Murphy’s Law. I think he follows me to the field sometimes….

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#122784 - 02/06/08 12:05 PM Re: Spears [Re: Taurus]
BillLiptak Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 259
In my readings the difference between a pike and a spear are length, not fighting styles. Pikes typically running 15 to 20 feet in length and more popular post dark ages when typical fighting formations consisted of the sheild wall front. Second and third ranks tending to be pole arms for dispatching the enemies sheild men. Among the pole arm weilding ranks were two handed swordmen, primarily to hack the hafts of the enemies pikes. The rear ranks were the pikemen. Extra long spears that would reach deep into enemy formations to kill the pikemen who were trying to kill your sheildmen who were keeping you safe laugh. This was pretty much standard formations for the swiss and german landsknechts of the 1500's.

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#122785 - 02/06/08 12:08 PM Re: Spears [Re: BillLiptak]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Darn, saw the title and thought maybe we were going to talk about Brittney again. Oh well...

Just about anywhere you go, you can find something to use as a suitable spear tip, with a little work. As with arrows, you can make a decent spear point with certain rocks, broken glass, bones, scrap metal, hard plastics, even just using a decent hardwood. Why use a good knife, unless it is surplus?
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#122797 - 02/06/08 02:52 PM Re: Spears [Re: benjammin]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


Shaft lengths vary a great deal between cultures and styles. The Chinese Dagger-Axe had a shaft only about a metre long and it was a devastatingly powerful weapon for it's time (bronze age). It was a standard issue infantry and cavalry and chariot based weapon before the Han Dynasty.

If I had to fight anything with an improvised spear I'd try to make it like a Ji...the evolution of the above dagger axe. It had a spear point at the tip AND a blade coming off the end at a 100 degree angle so you could also swing and hook to do damage.

I've trained with a spear when I was a Kung Fu student. It's all fun and games until your opponent gets within arms reach...your advantage becomes a liability fast!

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#122803 - 02/06/08 03:11 PM Re: Spears [Re: ]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Hmm, I thought that cavalry wasn't really utlized much in china prior to the Han dynasty, but chariots were more popular and would make use of pole arms a lot more. Maybe I have my dynasties confused...

Anyways, the kung fu weapon sounds a bit like a halberd. It has its uses.

For a fighting pole arm, I always thought the Naginata was pretty darned awesome. Basically a heavy Katana blade on the end of a shaft. They were used fairly effectively against mounted cavalry IIRC up to the 18th century.

_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#122862 - 02/06/08 10:41 PM Re: Spears [Re: benjammin]
Dan_McI Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 844
Loc: NYC
A lot of good info.

After thoughts provoked by Raspy's post, I might MAKE a spear with a knife in a survival situation, even without an abundance of knives at my disposal. If you needed a measure of defense, it would be good to have. Otherwise, I would avoid using a knife as a spear point, but I also might be able to do so by following your other advice.

I think the advise about making a spear point is great stuff. I knew of fire-hardening, but would have been at a loss for how to get it done.

One thing I would add: If I ever felt the need to create "a method of refining metal from raw ore," I think I'd much more quickly look to melting scrap. Metals are all over the place in our world. It may not be in a form I'd want it to use, but any form of scrap is likely to be easier to come by and purer than any ore I might be able to locate.

My first use of some type of scrap metal would be to try to fashion tools or weapons without a forge, as Raspy suggested. But if time and circumstance allowed for me to refine metal, after THSHTF and TEOTWAWKI, my ore is likely to be scrap material.

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#122866 - 02/07/08 12:07 AM Re: Spears [Re: Dan_McI]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


Our world is mass produced. If we're talking Armageddon there will be no shortage of materials to use when improvising stuff like that...think Mad Max.

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