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#27837 - 05/25/04 02:57 PM Knife testing
rbruce Offline
Member

Registered: 05/25/04
Posts: 153
Loc: California
This is my first post, so I'll tell you all a little about myself. I was born and raised in Northern California. I am currently in the U.S. Air Force and stationed in Florida. I am a Aircraft Comm/Nav/Mission systems specialist, which basically means I perform maintenance on avionics, I am not a fly-boy. I have had at least a slight interest in survival for a couple of years now. But my interest has only deepened since I found this site about a year ago. Most of my questions I have been able to find the answers to by searching through the forums. However I have a question I haven't found much about.

When you get a new knife what torture tests do you put it through to see if it's worthy enough to be carried in the field? I have a couple of different knives, but I don't know which I would want to carry into the country or throw into a BOB. I just got the book "Bushcraft" by Mors Kochanski and the section on Knife craft has some good ideas. However, I want to know what you guys here at ETS do to test the quality of a knife. Also, how do you put a folding knife through it's paces? I here so much on this forum about testing gear. I also hear a lot about how knives can be the most important tool for survival. However not much is said about testing this most important piece of equipment.

Also, I have a survival story of my own. When I was about 2-3 years old I was camping on Mt. Rainier in Washington state. I was hiking with my sister and just after we left camp I decided to return. It wasn't far so my sister left me walk back alone. I ended up getting lost and wandered around the mountain for something like 3-4 hours. <img src="images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I was only found because I wandered across a road as some rangers were driving by. I was very lucky. I was not properly clothed, equipped, or trained. I think this is why I am interested in survival. I don't want a repeat performance. The funny thing is I don't remember feeling scared. All I remember is telling my sister I was going back to camp, and I remember some of the beautiful scenery while wandering the forest.

Sorry for the long post but I appreciate all of your help in advance.
Robert

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#27838 - 05/25/04 03:24 PM Re: Knife testing
bountyhunter Offline


Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 1224
Loc: Milwaukee, WI USA
Rbruce:

I tend to buy knives that have some usefulness or beauty of construction to them, and I don't torture test them.

I have seen some of Cold Steel's advertisements for the strength of thier products and I for one am not impressed. The ability to pound a knife into a tree and hang "X" number of pounds on the handle really has no practical benefit for me. If I want to pry something (Except for snorkeling, where a combination knife, pry bar for mussels would be practical.), it is going to be with a pry bar or some type of lever. If I am going to pound something, it is going to be with a hammer, rock, hard wood, or scrap metal.

The knives I buy most frequently have to be able to cut well and sharpen easily. I prefer carbon steel blades because I have always been able to put a nice edge on them in less time, with less sophisticated sharpeners than with stainless blades blades.

The one brand of knives that I definitly stay away from is Kershaw, because so many of my friends have had the tips snap off with very little effort.

Bountyhunter

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#27839 - 05/25/04 05:44 PM Re: Knife testing
Chris Kavanaugh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 3824
The oldest piece of western literature is The Illiad of Homer. It is full of battles in which bronze weapons were broken and bent. Before that we have Oetzi with his copper axe and a flint dagger broken in combat and covered with someone's blood. My first sheathknife, the infamous Ontario/Camillus AF survival snapped during arctic survival school. ALL knives are subject to catastrophic failure. My own Fallkniven is. I know this, because Peter of Fallkniven has his knives laboratory tested to determine when they will. Luckly, rational use of a knife will rarely duplicate such stresses. I don't chop cinderblocks or stab cardoors. I did get a wierd patina from some smelly english cheese and my cat upchucked a sloppy hairball on the sheath <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. I finally figured out what I DIDN'T want in a knife; guthooks,sawbacks,skeleton handles et al and what I NEEDED; a good grip, easily sharpened blade and a sheath that works. Then it was simply a matter of reading the various knifeforums, Doug's article and benefiting from other's experience. There has been a real rennaissance in metallurgy since I broke that AFSK. Still, I think Brad Pitt, er, Achilles would have loved a sword stamped Ontario <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

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#27840 - 05/25/04 06:37 PM Re: Knife testing
Tjin Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1821
first of all it has to feel right, if a knife doesn't feel like a big solid peice of steel, i won't use it for any hard work. Chopping thats is, i don't really abuse mine equipment. I had knife's which proberbly would easily shop branches and stuff, but didn't feel solid enough, so i never use them. Mine "paranoia" of breaking mine knife's insures me that i got very thick, solid knife's which will definatly not break wenn i use it. The thinner steels just get the easy jobs, like mine attemps to carve spoons, which somehow always ends up more like a toothpick...

as for folders, i don't own much. Just a opinel and a Swith and wesson. But i can tell you that if i needed to test a folding knife's i would simpely bring in to mine work and use it. It will see a LOT cardbox boxes and some of them has some nice ceramic, steel or other hard things in it, which i "cut" very frequently. Mine knife blade ( smith and wesson cuttin' horse )needs to be sharpend after every 1 or 2 user days. I have also lost mine thumbstuds ( now a small bolt and 3 tiny nuts and tape ), the bolts are all damaged from the countless take-a-part actions, massive amount of scratches. SO i guess that would be one heck of a test. And ofcorse it's always funny to to see mine people trying to close the knife after they borowed it... I have shown them how to unlock it, but somehow they just forget and try all kinds of way to close it. ehh... pressing the logo won't help !
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#27841 - 05/25/04 07:21 PM Re: Knife testing
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't torture my knives, but I like to read the data from people who do <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/index.html

David

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#27842 - 05/26/04 08:36 AM Re: Knife testing
rbruce Offline
Member

Registered: 05/25/04
Posts: 153
Loc: California
David,
I like that link. That makes for some interesting reading.

Maybe "torture testing" was a poor choice of words in my original post. Let me rephrase. What are some tasks you would expect a survival knife to be able to accomplish? Also, do you try to experiment in your backyard before deciding whether a knife is good or not? You all made some good points, and I will take that all into consideration. I guess in the end knife choice is a personal thing, but I want to know if a knife is going to perform before I throw it into a BOB. Thanks.

Robert

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#27843 - 05/26/04 07:20 PM Re: Knife testing
Anonymous
Unregistered


What do I expect from a knife... That's an interesting question.

I have basically 3 "classes" of cutting tools.

1 - Chopper.
That one gets the ugly job done. Chopping down trees for fire, shelter, digging, prying a little (yes... I know). This one is not always carried as survival gear, but depending on the situation, it does. For that kind of use, I want a tough knife... Edge retention is useful, but toughness is the most important, so I stick either to soft carbon steels (Tramontina machete), or tough blade geometries (tomahawk, hatchet...). I also use a Becker Brute (BK1) with modified geometry (ground to a pretty wide scandi edge) regularly.

2 - General purpose knife.
That's always a fixed blade. It's not meant for chopping or prying, so toughness is not a real issue, and 4 inches of blade or so is more than enough. I like them tough, but the primary thing is sharpness and edge retention. I want them to be good cutters, and I want them to keep an edge. The best I've had so far are Scandinavian grinds. They really are worth a try. I use a Mora #1 (I prefer KJ Eriksson's) or a Frost's #780 clipper (for 9-10$ and at way over 60RC, they're VERY hard to beat). Swamp Rat knives with modified edge would be even better. They're tough as nails (and warranty is unbeatable).

3 - Backup.
Either just another Mora, or a good folder. Full flat ground, hard, tough steel, and reliable lock. Above all: tough moving parts. I like Benchmades, but honestly I mostly use Opinels.

Some general thoughts: I like a sharp back angle to scrape my firesteels. Of course, a comfy handle (without knuckle shapes or anything... just a good, soft yet allowing a good grip, oval handle) is a must on any knife/chopper.

Hope this helps...

Cheers,

David

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#27844 - 05/27/04 11:40 AM Re: Knife testing
Nomad Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/04/02
Posts: 493
Loc: Just wandering around.
Testing a Knife? Yes, I do that.

When I get a new knife, I spend considerable time “testing” its suitability for my applications. My form of testing is probably different from how others test, but it works for me. What I do, in general terms is to try to duplicate those things which I have done with other knives and which I will probably do again with this knife.

For a fixed blade, my testing is a bit extreme, for I am of the “sharpened pry-bar” school. Unlike Chris, I do punch holes in car doors. We needed to transport a large quantity of “special equipment” consisting of coolers, ice, chairs, and similar items a long distance over soft sand. We had a 4x4 ATV, but it had no carrying capacity. We needed a “sled”. In Baja Mx, it seems that if you take the doors off a vehicle, it does not need to be licensed. Therefore, finding a car door on a beach is quite common. The one we found did not have a window frame and there was no easy way to attach the door to the ATV. At the time, I was “testing” a Becker Crewman (BK-10), a rather robust fixed blade.

The drop point aligns a driving force nicely along the center of the blade. So when I put the point on the metal door and smacked the handle, the point did not skip up, like the traditional bowie point will, but cut a nice slot in the metal door. Two more smacks and I had a “U” shaped hole. Three more and another hole was cut along the latch edge of the door where there was a strong steel frame. We wrapped a chain thru the holes and our improvised sled began a week’s work of transporting “special equipment”.

I did not check the sharpness before and after the above. I am sure it dulled it considerably, but it was easier to sharpen the knife than carry the “special equipment”.

There have been many other tests, some it failed, like cutting carrots. I use an “oriental” style quick chop. The blade thickness snaps the carrot and sends the cut piece on a ballistic journey with considerable force. Kinda like a carrot machine gun.

The point is, that you need to decide how YOU use a knife and play around duplicating the anticipated uses. Carry the knife as much as you can. Look at every task as a chance to test the knife. I have had the BK-10 for over a year now and it has had considerable “testing”. Mostly now it resides in my hiking pack, which I grab every time we wander far from the vehicle. I have modified the grip and also the sheath. It has passed my “tests”, and in the process I learned its strengths and limitations. It comes naturally to hand and has earned its place in my pack.

Nomad
_________________________
...........From Nomad.........Been "on the road" since '97

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#27845 - 05/27/04 12:37 PM Re: Knife testing
NAro Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 518
I've just stopped using fixed blade knives to chop anything. Frankly, even in the field with an urgent need for shelter, I wouldn't "chop". The saw on my SAK will cut anything I need to use for shelter. Anything I need to use for a fire wouldn't need to be chopped. In routine situations I have a small hatchet or Kukri.

I have knives of numerous cost, material, edge geometry, etc. I just use them. I end up carrying a limited few which just feel right and work right, but strangely that seems to have nothing to do with any of the technical aspects I would have tested if I were a bladecrafter. So.. the only test I make of the knife itself is to take it along on numerous "safe and easy" trips, use it, and decide how I feel about it. Before I take it off into the wilderness.

I do, however, test the SHEATH or (if a folder) the pouch. I go out in the yard and try every way I can to bump, jostle, shake, and sling the knife system around. If it comes out of the sheath or pouch before I actually want it to... the whole system gets looked at again. Knives don't go with me until I satisfy myself that they will stay with me.. safely..(not stuck thru a sheath into my butt!)

I wonder: how many actual blade/edge failures vs.RETENTION failures? What do you guys think?

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#27846 - 05/27/04 04:18 PM Re: Knife testing
M_a_x Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 1203
Loc: Germany
I experienced knives slipping out of the sheath or pouch. Hence I test the system before I buy the knife. Some of the sales people were not really happy when they saw the knife drop on the counter. They were even less happy when they learned that this was sufficient to reject the knife.
_________________________
If it isn´t broken, it doesn´t have enough features yet.

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