I just returned from a beautifull weekend in the mountains of NY state. And it was [censored] cold! I used the trip to test out some of my survival skills as well as have some fun. I learned a few things that may come in handy in a survival situation:<br>1. When the temp. is cold enough, EVERYTHING FREEZES! Most of our water froze on the hike up, but what we had in our insulated canteens stayed drinkable. It was enough for the day, but when night fell we all slept with a bottle of water, so we would have some in the morning. Besides the water, one of my shirts was soaked in sweat from the hike and it also froze, before night fell and I woke up the next morning with a frozen sleeping bag. I woke up and it was covered in a thin layer of ice, much to my suprise.<br>2. Firemaking is not easy. I hadn't been camping for a few years and my skills were rusty to start with. Nevermind the wind that numbed your fingers as soon as you took off your gloves (good ones were a godsend this weekend). But I eventually got a fire started and warmed up.<br>So, the three things I learned this weekend were to always use insulated canteens, invest in quality gear and tokeep your skills up to date. If anyone would like to comment or whatnot it's welcome.<br>Thanks,<br>Jim

Your first sentence prefaced your remarks. You had " a beautifull weekend." Obviously in spite of some physical discomfort you enjoyed yourself and were in a positive mindset. This is the mindset that makes for survivors instead of victims. John Muir wrote of a horrific night caught in a snowstorm. He didn't dwell on the hardships so much as the incredible beauty of the stars overhead. CONGRATULATIONS

The two most important lessons I've learned from this forum and site are:<br><br>1. Your brain is your most important survival tool<br><br>2. Practice, practice, practice.<br><br>I had carried a MFS in my fanny pack for about two years, but I never tried starting a fire with it. I did try to make sparks with it and learned that the tiny pocket knife I toss in as a spare wouldn't make sparks. That discovery alone during a true survivial situation could have been life threatening. <br><br>Anyway, after finding this site last winter, I wised up and actually put the skills o test during a family campout. I was actually surprised on how easy it was to make a fire if you are properly prepared. But it's still a skill that one should practice. I also had my children try it. My oldest, a Boy Scout, managed to get the fire going with a little work (he didn't have enough kindling to keep the flame alive, a common mistake all young scouts make). My younger children needed my assistence to get the fire going. But I will have them try again this camping season so they eventually will learn the skill.<br><br>I'm planning on making one weekend a "Survival" weekend for my younger children. No, I'm not going to turn them loose in the wilderness. We are going to play-act what they should do if they ever get lost. We'll review the contents of their kits and practice how and when to use each item.<br><br>That way, just like adults, they won't have to learn those survival skills in a survival situation and they can focus theur brain power on other tasks, like thinking, observing & planning.

I enjoyed reading about your weekend. Seems you did well, but I would like to share a few thoughts about some of your troubles with gear in wicked cold.<br><br>I live in NH which is about as cold as where you were. In addition I have many New Years' and what today is called Presidents Weekend trips out in the White Mountains, many of which were far below 0' F.<br><br>You started with water, so I will start there too. <br>I carry no canteens, but do carry 2 (32 oz) nalgene bottles. <br>I carry a water bag empty. This is basicly what you find wine in from the 5 liter box with a nylon cover.You can hang these bags from about anything strong enough to hold the water.<br><br> I never leave it full at night, and I always remove the cap right after use, or I would not get it off. I fill it from a spring when I want it, and pour off as much as I can for later in Nalgene WIDE mouth bottles. These also have caps that have a permanent strap, which I use to keep my self dry when filling from a spring.<br><br>When hiking only one is full. At night mostly using a stove in the Whites, I make up dinner from all frozen foods pre cooked and packaged at home. I save the water that was used for boiling the packets to make hot drinks. I always add water as needed to the cooking pot, and when ready to get night gear set, heat water enough for the bottles. In one I add powdered tang with tea, and hard chips of maple sugar (instant crank), and the other is just water. I don't waste space with the insulators, prefering to use socks to keep the bottles hot. After I am sure the ice that was frozen to the caps has melted and there is no leaks, is when I insert the bottles in the socks, and then in the sleeping bag, and there they stay all night, with my boots, and other articals of clothing I don't want to freeze like a rock. You might expect that the bottles will be slush in the AM too.<br><br>Next to thaw out a sweaty shirt, first let it freeze, then shake it so the ice comes off, turn it inside out and repeat untill the ice is gone. Let it stay in the sun if possible the next day tied to a tree by several points so that it can air well. The same goes for socks. The 2nd night sleep with them layed out flat under you.<br><br>next the sleeping bag: Your sleeping bag was frozen because you did not use a vapor barrier. It was the outter layer of nylon that was frozen, and thats ok for about 2 nights, then the bag is just a stiff heat robber.<br><br>Make or buy a VB bag to sleep in, but never ever breath inside of it. Once I noticed a frozen spot at the foot of my down bag much like you did. I found the VB seam at my feet had opened about 4", and the bag was frozen about 18" dia around that area. Your bag will be come useless in 7 to 10 days with out a VB. I do not carry a tent because I find I can do better in a bivy sack. The bivey sack is as you know the most outter layer, and mine is gortex, not that it makes much difference in winter with a vapor barrier. The sack keeps off snow, and is low to cut wind. I hate the wind, as I just can't sleep when a tent sounds like a freight train. The time I found my bag frozen at my feet the gortex was dry, and not frozen, but the stiff area under the sack caught my attention on inspection. It was day 5, with the temp never above -20' F.<br>I dried my bag the same was as above in the sun thank god! This was a 10 trip.....<br><br>Mittens: In the Whites the simple fact is you can't remove them unless your in a sleeping bag. Since I started going to the Whites pre gortex, and I wanted to use a 35mm Minolta (battle ax of all cameras with only a built in light meter for battery use) I need mittens that could handle 0' to - 60' F. It took awhile to develope, and I suffered for it. So as not to waste your time, I will skip alot and get to what works for me today.<br><br>This system works well for me. I can open any blade on a Swiss Army knife, operate a manual camera, and work zippers, velcro, and snaps when in the cold wind blown wide open.<br><br>You will need to hunt hard for the right fitting shells. I found the EMS gortex un lined shells to be about the best now for the outter layer, but these are not as good for dexterity as my very old shells that were a poly blend and thin, but the EMS shells can allow almost the same dexterity.<br><br>To my way of thinking I want to be able to pick up dimes, so to speak.<br><br>My warmth layer is way low tech. Don't laugh..... I use thick Old Wool Socks. I pick one with bad heels, and darn up the heels for my thumbs. After that I pull the sock on to my elbow, and curl back my fingers, making a loose fist. At that point I cut a slot for my fingers and darn that area. Done.<br><br>Inner layer: very thin poly pro gloves. I liked the white silver poly's like Michael Jackson wore on one hand, but I can't find them any more. So I have 2 pairs of these thinnest possible gloves, and one pair had been cut at the finger tips.<br><br>How this works: (sorry long I know, but you hit to many topics, and I hate to carry dead guys, that were trying to have a good time in the first place)<br>Assuming you sleep in long johns:<br>Upon having mother nature whisper in your ear saying that you absolutly must abandon the warm sleeping bag, put on the fingerl tips removed gloves, a heavy shirt, and then the socks mittens, and parka. The socks mitts go to the elbow under the parka! Then slide out of the bag, add fresh socks to your feet (another day if you don't have warm feet) and pants, and wind pants, and nice toasty boots. Once all that is on, yer hat and shells.....<br><br>Mother nature has been appeased. Time to start the fire. Remove the shells as they are systhetic, and any flame will kill them! You can turn and roll up the wool sock mitts to the back of your hand to light a match and or lighter.. do so, eat.<br><br>the hike: You are in full battle gear now, and you have changed to the full finger poly pro gloves in campby just pulling back the wool mitts, so your hands are free to add gloves. You head off at a good pace in snow 10" deep heading up hill. Soon you become hot, so reach down inside you gators and unzip the wind pants to over the gator tops, and open a hole at the top of the zipper to allow air to flow though you pants. Do this by moving your fingers inside the wool mitts, but leaving the shells on! Open you coat zipper a little to cool, and leave you fingers out of the wool mitts. If you are really hot grab the wool right through the shells and pull your hand free of the wool completely, but never take off the shells.<br><br>Notes of this method: I have in total white out conditions fixed over boots that have come loose on others at 125mph winds on the summit cone of Mt. Washington at -55' F How do I know that? The guy was a weatherman there, and I was invited inside after......If that ever happens have a warm drink, but refuse food...bad mannors to eat food, even when offered....<br><br>I have several hundred pretty nice 35mm slides going back to 1976-77 New Years Eve. That was my first winter trip, and the worst for me and others. 1 dead, many injured, but not in my party. Summited on the 3rd, and first party to reach it.<br><br>I would say that if you don't like my system, that you make one that gives you all the dexterity you can get, and let me know what that is..... I have a friend that argued this system was no good for years. he ran up to EMS and got these bulky gloves, and went off snow shoein in the valleys here. Yup those gloves were one piece battle gear all right! His fingers were hot all the time. He could not vent with out taking them off, and he could not do up a any zippers, or do anything at all but hold a ski pole....So he went to high cold ground, and came back to say the gloves while hot crippled his trip, and he suffered for it..... He since has made a better suited system........ I am sorry to go on so.......but this is better than carring dead guys to me....... Mac<br>

Thanks Chris, I really did have a great time, even though it was freezing cold. It hovered around the zero mark during the night, but I managed to sleep rather well. I appreciate all your comments and tips, so I can use them next time.<br>Thanks,<br>Jim

Well, being in the Greens *waves across river to Mac*, I have the same climate as Mac does, so I can only toss a few pieces into what he says. I also know we have a lot of city dwellers form warmer climes on here, so stuff that people like Mac, myself and others on here from "The Land That Global Warming Forgot" might not even think about doing is something ya'll've never had to really think about.<br><br>Wool, wool and more wool. I have some Goretex and lots of polypro, and I won't even walk my property line this time of year without wool on my feet, hands and head. I've found that, at least to me, it seems to work better than any of the wundercloths, especially around fires. (I've just recently learned firesthand the joys of having molten synthetics making contact with skin, and it one of the worst burns I've ever had. From a drop of 550 line I fusing.)<br><br>4 gloves is what I use when it gets hellishly cold. The first layer is light, cotten or silk liner glove. Then comes wool shooter's mittens for dexterity. Then normal, wool mittens over the top, followed by a shell. I wore the shooters mitts only for so long, my index fingers hurt from November to April from the cold. You won't notice that your fingers are starting to get screwed up, and many not-so-bad bites is as bad as one big case of frostbite, maybe worse.<br><br>When it's warmer, the liner, and mil-spec wool gloves, with the shell and full mitten as needed. <br><br>ALWAYS dummycord your mittens. you got picked on in grade school for it, but the spirits of the mountains don't care, and you will need those fingers later in life. In fact, dummy cord everything important and carry a backup if you can.<br><br>I know, a lot of rambling about gloves, but having perminantly screwed up my fingers from years of imporoperly insultating them in winter, prior to turning 25, has made me a bit of a zealot on the topic. If you hands fail, you die, that simple. Your hands and feet are major losers of warmth, readily damageable, and mission critical if you are going to survive. I've seen too many jokers freeze thier hands while snowshoeing or crosscountry skiing by wearing bad gloves. In a nice, warm ski shack with medical attention available is the place to learn the lesson if you're to thick to learn from other's experince, not in the back country while lost and hurt. <br><br>Don't get dehydrated in the winter. If your tissues dry out, your more likely to become hypothermic or get frostbite. (Freezerburn is basically the same thing as frostbite.) Always keep a bottle INSIDE your jacket. Never let it get below half full- that way, you know you have water. If you have fresh snow, add some after every drink- the water will make it melt faster than a bottle of snow, and you won't get as chilled by it. I use a Nagelene in a net bag made out of gutted 550 cord.<br><br>Keep your throat warm. Biggest veins that aren't normally covered in your throat, and you'll loose heat through them. A polypro neckwarmer is a good place to start. If you dno't like the prices, it's a simple sewing project. (If you can sew, you can customise your gear to no end.) A similiar one for your head will keep you ears, temples and sinuses warm if you have to go down a few layers to keep from over heating. <br><br><br><br>

hello Cyberraven , good to meet ya! ayuh...<br><br>Yup, I thought i probably had written about all anyone would read.....on mittens<br><br>I seem to use a system of 3's, which is pretty much there is 3 layers in extreme cold on each part of my body.<br><br>I like all wool stuff in comparison to the new poly's, and to mix them is like asking for electircal execution! LOL<br><br>I think I said i had better than 40+ trips in the whites which is true, but hardly counts many other places just outside that area, which is as cold or sometimes colder.<br><br>I lived full time year round for 3 years in a tee pee too, and mixed technology's from 1750 to present. Seems the 3's applied there to somehow. I was with my current wife, as this time and we became aclimated, hanging out at +15' F in just shirts, pants and boots... no need for gloves of any type.<br><br>The last winter we got a spell of -20'F at lunchtime for a bit over 2 weeks, and nights it went down to below -40' F, but the tee pee had a open fire and a wood stove with 4' of pipe. We did fight for who got up to make mornin coffee though a few times....I lost mostly ;-(<br><br>But when I go to the whites, meaning the "Residential's" or Northern Peaks I wear above tree line on my chest area say a wool "River Shirt" (Henley) A wool dress shirt (kinda thin) and wool work shirt ( kinda thick) and top it with a unlined parka (wish it was gortex)<br><br>For legs long johns with wool, wool pants with boot zippers on the side so i can vent over gators, and gortex shell pants un lined with the same zippers.<br><br>Feet silk socks, heavy wool socks, and Koflach (Verticals). When not in boots I wear Northface down booties with down.<br><br>Also when at rest I wear Northface down coat.<br><br>Head coverings as needed but something like 2 balclava's and hard nylon hood over all with googles, and maybe even a leather face mask... <br><br>1 neck warmer of wool, and a cotton rag like a outlaw that I allow to freeze solid.<br><br><br>Cyberraven, this bit is just for you..... I used to work for a B&B doing general maintenacne. We offered winter sleigh rides, and I often was a driver for a couple belgians. But there was this young buck driver, and he was on duty when I had night off...... So one night he decided to drive the pung into the water trough, which bumped it off the mount. The next day the pipe was frozen under a few feet of snow, and I had to dig it up by hand, and get it going again..... water for the horses is critical in winter...I bet you know that.<br><br>I was not ready for this one but!!!!!!!! I was madder than hell too. <br><br>I generally avoid getting wet when possible, but this time it was not possible, and there was a wicked blow on, and spitting snow sorta hard, and about -20'. I was wearing longjohns and levis, with felt sorrels, and 2 wool shirts and a parka. A customer noticed me splashing water on my pants on purpose, and started yelling at me to stop! I just kept it up, and he went inside thinking I must lost my mind. The water froze on contact, and did not soak thru. I had the break my knees free to work, but was done in about 5 hours.<br><br>I was just wonderin if you ever had occasion to try that way of staying warm.... I was toasty workin, and as soon as I was done went prompty inside to change. I wouldn't attempt that if I was to be out for a few days, but then i wouldn't be working...... <br><br>How's things on Mt.Mansfield? I got a few pics of it taken from the "Quay" on Mt. Adam's with 35mm and telephoto lens...pretty cool...think it was a Feb full moon weekend...<br><br> <br>