Ship My Knives to get sharpend? Why Bother?!

Step 1: Go to Local Grocery store

Step 2: Ask for Manager of Meat/Seafood/Produce Department Which ever one is more likely to have knives depending on what departments available from your store

Step 3: Ask The Person If they have a company sharpen their knives

Step 4: Find out about the company/When they will be in next

Step 5: ????????

Step 6: profit



The Man who sharpened their knives Turned out to do Personal knives as well at 2$ a pop. I tossed 6 Knives his way Mostly cheapos but also my benchmade Presidio. He Put WICKED edges on them using a Portable Belt grinder from the 70s. the Most impressive edge was on my Gerber Profile and second had to be the Buck 119 in which had a factory edge and only 1 short few branches usage.

The benchmade Did not come out to well and he explained the angle guide prevented from going further down the blade Because of the thumb studs. He attempted to freehand it and nicked a thumbstud but he did get it reasonably decent at the quarter inch start of the blade he missed.

Overall Very nice guy very badass edges on the softer steel knives slightly only slightly worse on the harder steels but overall more then satisfactory.

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a good local sharpener available. A belt grinder is a terrific sharpening tool so long as the sharpener is competent with it. If s/he's not it's a good way to ruin a knife in a hurry! While I sharpen higher end Japanese kitchen knives on natural and synthetic waterstones, I generally sharpen outdoor/sporting & "tactical" knives on a 1" x 42" Kalamazoo belt grinder. It works very, very well! I can get a kitchen knife probably 85%-90% as sharp in three minutes on the grinder as I can with forty-five minutes on stones. Sometimes it makes me want to throw all my water stones down an elevator shaft!

Very true about sharpening with a belt grinder. Someone competent can do a fantastic job on a knife. If they are not competent they will ruin the knife for sure. I won't let anyone use a belt grinder on any knife I own, too much at risk.

I sharpen my own with various stones. I have Japanese waterstones in 3 grits, a Spyderco Sharpmaker with ceramic stones for double bevel knives and I strop with a leather strop with green buffing compound.

I also have an Edge Pro Apex setup for the harder to maintain angle blades. No power tools in my sharpening. I know belt grinders work wonders but it can be a good wonder or a bad wonder. A long time ago I worked at a place where we used large shears and someone came around about every month to sharpen them for us. The guy was awesome on the shears, they really cut well when he worked them. I once had him sharpen a Solingen hunting knife that I had bought when stationed in Germany. It was ruinded. The guy knew shears but was clueless when it came to knives. So, no belts for me.

One thing I find belts essential for is repairs, especially fixing broken tips. I personally think any grinder that runs at over 2,000 rpm is inappropriate for sharpening- there's just too much potential for overheating the blade. I have used a 3,500 rpm HP grinder but it requires a very light touch and you have to know what you're doing. Under $400 I think the Kalamazoo is the way to go.

Of course, the EP is ideal. I have an EP Professional model and sixty or so custom stones. Definitely nice!

There's this store owner from the mall days owns a knife shop and has mas macho. A Balfor bench grinder on a stand with buffing wheel on one side and sharpening wheel on the other wicked sharp knives.

I don’t understand. I know getting a good edge with Japanese water stones takes experience but from what I read and the demonstrations I have seen, they get the job done.

So it takes forty-five minutes. Why throw them down an elevator shaft?

Jeanette Isabelle

I've done really well with a charged strop for my best knives to keep them sharp. Other knives and on those unfortunate occasions where my best knives have been dulled I use a Sharpmaker. I have been known to send serrated blades off to Spyderco to be sharpened -- they do a great job and it's way easier than doing them myself.

Personally I Suck big time at sharpening knives, I just cant get the technique down.

I Wasn't Too worried since 4 of the knives were under 20$ in cost and easily reobtained if ruined. The Buck has since my purchase shot up in price big time so that made me a touch worried but not much. The big issue was the benchmade which was a costly knife that I carry and use every day and sadly thats the one that suffered the most.

Strangely enough I did send the Presidio Back to benchmade for a sharpening and they put a awefull uneven very very high angle tiny little edge on it. Very confusing but He did put a nice little steep even grind on it even if the very very first quarter inch at the hilt is a touch off.

Interesting thread.

I've been thinking about starting a side business (Saturday garage or farmers' market) doing this for consumers. Kitchen knives, pocket knives, basic scissors, pruning shears, axes, and garden tools -- all done while you wait. There is a real demand, and I've been doing it for friends and family for years.

The commercial sharpening outfits focus on volume customers (restaurants and butcher shops for knives, and scissors for hair salons). Talking to them, they make a tidy profit. But almost none of them want the fiddle factor of dealing with individual consumers.

I find it more satisfying to sharpen by hand (diamond really kicks). But for a viable business proposition, there just isn't time for that. People bring in "sticks" that take a lot of work to turn back into "knives." I'm starting off with a 1" belt grinder, and may get a couple of Tormek paper wheels for my old bench grinder.

Serrations are a big problem. AFAIK they have to be done by hand. That takes a lot of time and fuss. But a lot of blades have them now. Any thoughts? There's an electric sharpener at Cabelas that claims to handle serrated edges, but I'm leery of running somebody's Spyderco through one of those.

Another contentious topic is the preferred type of edge: "toothy vs. polished smooth." Personally, I prefer a somewhat toothy edge for most kinds of work, but they don't last as long as a polished/stropped edge. Will consumers care all that much? I would be curious about everyone's perspective on the subject.

Knives with thumbstuds are pain in the butt to do especially if you want a low edge angle and I always end up nicking them, maybe that's why BM put such crappy factory edge on their knives...

Polished edge sucks for kitchen knives used on meat. My Shun has mirror edge and zip through any vegetable, but struggles on meat, whereas my other cheap knife I hand sharpened on a norton and arkansas stone bites in like a chainsaw. If I were to do any commercial sharpening, I'd do the same thing knife factories do, 150 grit then polish to remove any burr. And I'd not do any serrations just to avoid the headache.

I use belt sander for major profiling but sharpmaker for sharpening, belt sander removes more steel than necessary for just sharpening IMO.

I was joking. It's a reference to the fact that at times the difference in the time and effort required to get that additional 10%-15% of added sharpness can be frustrating. But when I get a Japanese kitchen knife in White #1 sharp enough to cut hanging paper towels it's worth it.

I've been considering this, too. My brother, who's pretty good at all things IT, rented a domain name for me with the intent of programming a web site for my sharpening services. I do a lot of sharpening, both for the guys I work with in a restaurant kitchen as well as for some customers (local and online). The main issue for me is time. I work FT and go to school FT. The sharpening is a hobby/sideline that I enjoy, but I'm not sure if I'd enjoy it if I had to do it 40+ hours per week.

I sure don't think I would ever consider sharpening as a business. It just has too many variables. I know many make a good living from this, it just isn't something I want to do.

I say that because I have been sharpening knives for 50 years and have a lot of sharpening tools that are normally great at sharpening. There are however, knives that just seem to not want to take an edge. There are many different steels and many different designs of blades and some are really tough to sharpen.

I have a SOG folder that a friend gave to me when I was deploying to Desert Storm. I like the knife, nice shape to the blade and it was sharp for a long time. When it first became dull I tried everything to get it sharp again. It is marginally sharp now, still nowhere near as sharp as I like a knife to be.
It has a stud on the blade, which can be unscrewed and removed for sharpening. Something about the steel makes it hard to sharpen. Very hard Japanese steel.

I am not a fan of serrated knives but they do have there place and are good cutters for many things. They are also hard to sharpen, especially partial serrated blades.

You would have to become proficient at all styles and types to make a decent wage sharpening. You couldn't pick and choose what you would take on, businesses can't work that way.

So, I try to keep my knives sharp, the way they should be to be useful and I do that at my leisure. I do sharpen for family and friends, if they ask. Sure don't want a career at it.

most of mine get no better edge than scrape shaving sharp...I use an old DMT diamond stone and a Gerber hand held small "V" ceramic unit you draw the blade through...I've never had to sharpen the Sebenza (kind of my formal knife, and would really have to be a serious occasion to use it) but routinely sharpen the Randall #10 (fishing fillet knife of very hard unknown stainless... the #4 Grohmann is not nearly that hard of steel) and EDC Benchmade's 154CM with it...along with the older Fiskars kitchen set...

This is an interesting thread. I am amazed that there could actually be commercial possibilities for knife sharpending. What is next - a shoe tieing service?

Putting an edge on a knife is so easy, although I am not all that great at it, compared to some who are really on the cutting edge of this activity. It is a nice relaxing activity to pursue when you have the ball game on the tube during a quiet winter evening....

I'm not sure whether I will, either. But I'm set up to sharpen just about everything except chain saw chains, and if there was a market I'd probably do that, too.

However, I disagree that you can't pick and choose what you sharpen. I have a friend in WI that does almost nothing but high end Japanese kitchen knives. He gets $20 per inch and turns people away! He's obviously an exceptional case but it shows what's possible. I could probably build a pretty nice cottage business doing just kitchen knives. Already it's been suggested by one of the corporate chefs that they should have me sharpen for the company, and I already do sharpen for many of the chefs. Heck, I still sharpen for our old Exec and Sous that left the company.





I think you're missing an important point. Not everyone is capable in sharpening their own stuff, and many are not interested in learning. I know a lot of home cooks that will never see a sharp knife except when they buy a new one. Even many pro cooks aren't very good at sharpening. Certainly a hunter or outdoors-person should learn to sharpen probably but not all do.

Time is another issue. On my belt grinder I take a couple dozen extremely dull knives and bring them up to shaving sharp less than half an hour. When I'm done with a good Japanese kitchen knive it will push cut TP and treetop hair. This takes time and a bit of gear that most people don't have. For instance, I have a Japanese natural polishing stone that's 2" x 4" yet cost me almost $200. It finishes to somewhere around 60,000 grit. Can you get a knife sharp without it? Yeah, of course. But having a good assortment of tools really helps. For instance, I have a 140 grit Japanese Atoma diamond plate for repairs and reprofiles. I'd estimate that it cuts perhaps 3X faster than a DMT XXC. The belt grinder is one of the biggest time savers, plus it allows me to do stuff I wouldn't even consider by hand. For instance, last winter a coworker brought in a cherished Winchester skinning knife for me to try to fix. Literally the last 1/2" of the knife was simply gone- I don't know how he managed it but it snapped right off. I explained that I could fix it but it would be different knife. Since it was useless without any type of point he asked me to try. My approach was to draw a new knife with a sharpie, then use a 60 grit ceramic belt to remove everything below the line. Then I sharpened it up for him. He was pretty amazed, and I'll admit it turned out pretty well.

Many people just want a sharp knife with no fuss. For those people a reliable sharpener is a good option.

Phaedrus, I must admit my jaw is dropping in amazement as I read your post. I know you are deeply into knives and sharpening, which makes sense for a pro chef, but spending $200 on a sharpening stone - why you could get a good climbing rope for that price!

I suppose it is a case of different strokes for different folks. Your post makes me think I must learn more about belt sanders. Oneof the things I do during my "July in south Dakota" every year is sharpen tools for our diggers (at considerably less than $20 an inch). They dull very quickly digging in the dirt and it sounds like I could do a quicker job even better than with the fairly coarse grinding wheel currently employed.

Haha! Yeah, well I would see the price tag for a set of skis and say, "Man! Think of the knives you could get for that!" Many of us have hobbies that probably look pretty whacky to those who don't share them. My most expensive kitchen knife, for instance, costs over $800. I have a $1,000 vacuum sealer on my kitchen counter. I have over a dozen Japanese natural water stones, some of them pretty rare, and another fifty or so synthetic water stones. If this seems over the top, then think about what people spend on cars, watches, sail boats, etc.

Some of us just don't wanna stop collecting toys just because we've grown up!

BTW, the only reason the stone was that cheap is because it's so small. The mines these stones were quarried from are pretty much all played out. Remember, some of them have been worked of over 1,000 years! And Japan isn't that large to begin with. The Hideryama Renge Suita I have would cost thousands of dollars in a "full size" chunk. Sword polishers snatch up many of the best J-nats. It's not unusual to see rare, high end stones sell for more than many cars...

Most of my J-nats, though, are a bit more common. Almost no other single stone in my collection was over $100 for small sections.

What a waste! Think of the gun you could get for $1800!

I CAN shapen. A bit. But my personal blades and those I make are shipped out to a young lady in another state who puts an extremely frightening edge on them. I thought my Gryphon was sharp right out of the box and she snorted and proved me wrong. So sending them out can be a minor nuisance, but if the person is good at what they do, well worth it IMO.

Lol @ Chaosmagnet. Or guns. Much less expensive when one has an FFL. I could think of how to spend an extra $1800 rather easily.

LOL@Chaos! I can't tell you how many people say the same thing to me when I talk about camping equipment. Maybe I need to hang out with a better class of people?! LOL!

I could totally use a new rifle for F-Class.

I agree. My thinking is to stay flexible, keep my overhead close to zero, and focus on putting a decent working edge on the cutting tools that people use all the time. That's where I get my kicks.

I would model it as a community service as much as a business. First small blade (paring knife or equivalent) is always free. Also free: ongoing mini-seminars to help people do it themselves and revive this "lost art."

And if someone shows up with a specialty blade (Japanese laminated) or professional scissors (hollow grind), I won't touch them. I don't have the gear or the experience to do a proper job, and I'll be up front about that. Leave the specialties to the specialists.

I have run into this a few times also. Frustrating.

I have found that some factory edges actually create a very thin but very hard layer -- harder and tougher than the core steel of the blade. This makes the initial edge last longer, but creates problems when resharpening. It takes a lot of work on a coarse stone to grind that extra-hard layer off. But you'll know when you get there: suddenly the steel responds to your sharpening tools like it's supposed to, and the edge "pops."

That's my 2c anyway. YMMV.

Just used my benchmade to cut the cardboard off the battery pack to make it fit in my kit....Like....butter....

If you have a decent piston gun in 300 AAC Blackout I'll consider a trade!

Mostly my sharpening is a community service. Most of the knives for my coworkers I'll sharpen for free, or for the odd bottle of wine or 12 pack of craft beer. I tell them there's no way they can afford my rates so I'll do it for free. And certainly if I "went pro" I'd have to charge a healthy amount for sharpening on water stones. First there's the time involved- maybe 20 minutes if the knife has been previously profiled by me and not subsequently abused. A knife that's in worse shape will of course take longer. The process of "opening" a new Japanese knife (that is, the creating of the bevel and correction of any grind flaws and/or issues) can take an hour to an hour and a half depending on the amount of work. Very thin Japanese patterns like a nakiri are often not totally flat (they warp or bend a bit). Those must first be straightened. Occasionally I'll run into an over-grind, usually on the heel. The true nightmare is the under-grind, again usually at the heel, that requires that I knock it down and blend it with the radius of the knife. Not fun.

If presented with a Japanese single bevel such as a yanagi-ba I would also respectfully decline. I know how to sharpen them and would do my own but my methods may not be "traditional" or technically correct. Those knives are not a part of the cooking that I do; they're pretty much for sashimi.

I didn't really set out to get thousands of bucks worth of sharpening stuff...it sort of snuck up on me!






It's frustrating to find something that doesn't want to get sharp. I find these generally fall into two broad categories: First is junk steel. The second is stuff that holds a tenacious burr. Junk steel typically (although not always) comes from Asia. Pakistan is legendary for crappy steel and pot metal screws. Personally I think that Chinese 8CR13 MOV is also not great for taking an edge. At the other end you have stuff like VG-10, CM-154 and whatever it is that Global uses. They're good, high quality steels but deburring them can be a PITA. To be honest, even when hand sharpening on stones I'll often follow the 140 Atoma or 320 Shapton Professional stone with a couple passes on my Kalamazoo; I use a leather belt doped with 0.5 micron CrO paste. This peels the burr right off. Then I continue with whatever progression I think it appropriate for the knife.

Sometimes I find knives in VG-10 to be a little chippy until they've been sharpened a couple of times. There are lots of possible reasons for this but my pet theory is that the very edge of the edge is being either over-heated or work hardened. In any event, the problem usually goes away after a couple sharpenings.

Not that anyone asked ( ) but I'm not crazy about VG-10. It's a good steel, but I think it's been surpassed. There are several tool steels that get a bit sharper and exhibit better "kiranega", or duration of sharpness. There are other pure stainless steels that are tougher. And many steels (at least the ones used in kitchen knives) are easier to sharpen. On the stones VG-10 is pretty abrasion resistant but that doesn't seem to translate into better edge retention. YMMV.

"Not that anyone asked but I'm not crazy about VG-10. It's a good steel,but I think it's been surpassed."
(I can't figure out how to quote yet
)

Phaedrus, I'm asking, what do you recommend for stainless and for non-stainless?

That depends on what you're using it for. Kitchen knives and bushcraft knives have different criterion.

I wanted to experiment with very high grit abrasives for sharpening, but needed an economical approach: I used contact cement to secure 150 and 400 sand paper to some pieces of marble and glass.
Results were mixed, more experimentation is needed. This is apparently an approach used by carpenters to achieve scary sharp plane blades.

As I have clearly stated on here, I do not like serrated edges and I'm sick of commercial makers putting them on everything. And in the worse possible place on the blade. I have a S&W fighter and sure enough they ruined it with an inch and a half of serrations. I have an old Sea and Land serrated folder with my climbing gear. Thats the only one I approve of. Just my opinion. You are all entitled to yours.

For kitchen knives I like SRS-15, Aogami Super, Shirogami (White #1 or White #2), AEB-L & some tool steels that seem to be proprietary. The steel in the Kagayaki CarboNext at JCK is awesome for the money. 19C27 is also very good. In the hands of someone who knows what he's doing, like, say, Devin Thomas, then 52100 is about as good as it gets. Very soon I'll be trying a new gyuto in M390 MicroClean. I have high hopes for it. Lastly, if you have the big bucks then ZDP-189 is superb.

I think VG-10 is pretty good for outdoors-type knives. CPM154 is pretty good, too. S30V is a good strong steel but doesn't take as good an edge as VG-10. In the hands of someone who understands how to heat treat it correctly D2 is a great steel (but off the cuff I'd only trust Bob Dozier and Knives of Alaska). O1 is a really good steel, and I particularly like JK Handmade Knives (I've got 50 of them). 1095 is acceptable but not premium. I shy away from 440C and its' variants...not crappy but there's much better. There are a few higher end ones that get good press but I can't speak from experience. These include CPM-M4 and Boeler K390. Someday... Busse does a good job with his proprietary INFI steel. And surely there are some obviously great steels that I'm simply forgetting right now.

You need a certain level of quality of steel but really I think that, within reason, the heat treat trumps the choice of steel.

That hasn't been my experience.

Press the quote button at the bottom of any post and you'll be able to see how it's done in UBBCode -- it's very straightforward. PM me if you have any issues.

OK, all you sharpening wizards, I have a question about sharpening at the other end of the scale. Let me explain.

Every July for the last decade or so, I have served as crew chief for excavators digging mammoth fossils in the Black Hills of South Dakota ( here). One of my routine jobs is to sharpen tools, typically chisels, pointing trowels, and putty knives. Typically the tools dull rather quickly, as we are digging in fine grained sediments. I often will sharpen the same tool twice a day.

The current "sharpening" technique consists of running the edge along a medium grit bench grinder, taking care not to burn the steel and occasionally dousing the tool in water. My interest is heightened because I have just acquired a hori-hori, a Japanese tool fashioned specifically for digging dirt. It is rather dull, and I am sure sharpening will improve it. but I am thoughtful about the best way to put a good edge on it. The blade is inscribed "K245 Stainless China'" which is probably not in the same league as S30V. Any inisghts are welcomed - What is the best way to sharpen an edge for really rough work in dirt and rocks?

IMHO, this is the fundamental pattern for all knife and gun discussions.
Intelligent, educated, experienced well-intentioned people disagree as to ideal configurations, and choices are influenced by marketing, media and historical forces. Knife utility is often a function of user skill and proper application, as has been suggested by the OP.

On this forum, tool preferences approach the status of religion; religious debates can become heated, with partcipants burned at the stake.
It might be wise to agree to disagree, and to preface all comments with traditional formulations of humility IMHO/YMMV.
Kumbaya, My Brothers and Sisters, YMMV.

There's only so much you can do in a high-wear environment like that. Digging tools use milder steel and are heat-treated for durability rather than edge-holding. Regardless of method, you're going to be resharpening on a regular basis.

I would certainly stay with a single bevel. It's not elegant, but it's faster to do and will probably wear longer. The angle of the bevel is a trade-off between penetrating ability and how long the edge will last. 45 degrees is the simplest and probably the best you can do in that application.

I sharpen all my digging tools by hand, with a 10" mill bastard file. For digging tools there's little value (IMO) in doing anything fancier. Frequent touch-ups keep the sharpening job from getting too big. If I'm far afield, a coarse diamond file does the touch-ups.

With a bigger fleet to maintain, hand sharpening probably isn't practical. A bench grinder or angle grinder will build up heat with frightening speed, even using the lightest pressure and fast passes. That's why knife knuts use a 1" belt sander. You could try Norton's white aluminum oxide wheels for bench grinders, designed to run cool(er) for sharpening tempered steel http://www.nortonindustrial.com/BenchPedestal-WhiteAO.aspx .

But consider also the contrarian view: when using a bench/angle grinder (with extreme care), the heat you generate will create a thin edge that is harder than the core steel of the tool, and will last somewhat longer. You'll know you've done this if a file bounces right off it. But if there is visible burning/blueing, you're doing damage.

Your new hori-hori may be a special case. I'm not familiar with that steel. It's probably a single bevel right from the factory, and you should follow those lines. But please use a file or diamond. I hope you won't put it on the grinder.

(Long post, sorry 'bout that. Practically a Sunday sermon. )

In the old days, I was taught to sharpen a scythe with a hammer and a stake anvil. blades get dull when the edge is turned-cold hammering returns it to shape without the loss of metal incurred by grinding and filing...
...and you get to whack something with a hammer, which might be therapeutic, IMHO, after a full day riding herd on young paleontologists. YMMV.

Thank you for the replies. Looks like I've got a few things to try...

Riding herd on budding paleontologists is an interesting business. Not all are young - our very best excavator did her last season, most likely, at age 92. It was quite a milestone for me when she allowed me to sharpen her tools.... At the other end of the scale, a young lady of 16 my first season is now working on her doctorate - how quickly they grow!

Thank you for such an in-depth response.
I'm sorry I did not answer your question, work has been too busy to go online.

I meant outdoor EDC KNIFE / not chopper or impromptu battle ax.
It looks like I'm using your choices.
I have a Spyderco in VG10 that I EDC. I like it as a great all around knife.
I own two of Doug's CMP-M4 but use them infrequently.
I own some S30V but I tend to baby them to softer cutting because it is supposed to be very chippy.
I own a few 1095 including Doug's but all are more camp choppers then knives.
I have a number of other steels too.

I posted the question because there are steels that hold an edge well but are hard to sharpen especially quick touch ups in the field.
My skills with my Sharpmaker are only get me so far.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge of both steel and sharpening.
It looks like I'm making good choices.

Thanks chaosmagnet! I figured it out.

But where can we sharpen our kitchen knives?

my local grocery store,Lunds,in the Highland area of St Paul MN will sharpen kitchen knives for free.you pick up a cardboard "sheath" at the butcher counter and bring the knife in that with your info filled in.i had a yard sale knife sharpen by them and it was a very passable job,neat knife with a solid aluminum handle and a big blade that i assume came from one of the slaughter house's that used to be in St Paul,it's my "go too" knife in the kitchen.

Assuming your edge isn't too far gone, get a lansky turnbox, the 2 rod version is good enough and cost a bit over $10.

While I think of it, here some new, quite economical options I have come across. Both types are abrasives for steel, on a mylar sheet with an adhesive backing.

3M Micro-Abrasives for Sharpening:
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=33004&cat=1,43072

Diamond Lapping Film:
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=68943&cat=1,43072

I recently purchased some of the diamond lapping sheets, but haven't given them a try yet.

BTW: No affiliation to Lee Valley, except that they keep sending me these darned catalogues loaded with neat stuff I previously didn't even know I needed.

Hiker more,

I use a wet wheel grinder (mine is a Grizzly, Tormak is the best known) for outdoor tools from geologists hammers to shovels and trowels. Use a single bevel with a fairly wide angle. Make sure you take a truing tool.

I use the same grinder for axes and chopping tools. Shaving sharp is really not necessary for these tools. I also use it to fix a broken tip, chip or badly abused knife. The rest I use a Spyderco Triangle (the diamond sleeve can really help on a dull knife). When I need a larger surface, I have a 9 x 12 granite surface plate with appropriate grit wet or dry paper on it.

Respectfully,

Jerry

I am able to get a pretty good utility edge on my knives when I sharpen them. I've never gotten one sharp enough to shave hair, unless you don't mind taking some flesh with the hair. But since I don't shave with my knives, I think I prefer the utility edge better. That's my story and I'm sticking with it!