Guns in Yellowstone

Posted by: ponder

Guns in Yellowstone - 08/08/10 08:25 PM

"Escaped Arizona Inmates Believed to be Hiding in Yellowstone Park"

The excape of the Arizona inmates got my interest.

Yesterday a 61 year old couple were killed while car camping with their trailer in Mew Mexico.

This morning an Idaho APB came across the air for a New Mexico car driven by the excapees.

I sat in the back of my truck hoping they would pull in for a hold up.

Currently the car has been found and the inmates are communing with with nature and all of the Yellowstone campers.

I hope another poor couple are not killed because of the lack of firearms while camping.



Posted by: Susan

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/08/10 08:36 PM

I guess they caught that killer grizzly in Yellowstone a few days too soon...

I wonder... if a bear kills a couple of human killers/criminals, does the bear get a steak or a bullet?

If a visitor sneaks a gun into Yellowstone and shoots the two killers, is that a crime?

Sue
Posted by: ponder

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/08/10 08:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Susan
If a visitor sneaks a gun into Yellowstone and shoots the two killers, is that a crime?Sue


The reward is currently up to $40,000. Plead guilty and pay the $100 fine,
Posted by: haertig

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/08/10 09:24 PM

Surely the criminals wouldn't take their guns inside Yellowstone. There are signs saying they're not supposed to do that. All the Yellowstone campers are therefore safe, and need not worry.
Posted by: Teslinhiker

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/08/10 10:11 PM

Originally Posted By: haertig
Surely the criminals wouldn't take their guns inside Yellowstone. There are signs saying they're not supposed to do that. All the Yellowstone campers are therefore safe, and need not worry.


Guns are allowed in Yellowstone.
As of February 22, 2010, a new federal law allows people who can legally possess firearms under applicable federal, state, and local laws, to legally possess firearms in this park.

The Credit Card Accountability Responsibility and Disclosure Act of 2009, was enacted May 22, 2009 and will become effective February 22, 2010. Section 512 of this law; Protecting Americans from Violent Crimes, supersedes the uniform treatment of firearm possession in the national park system outside Alaska under the regulations found at 36 C.F.R. 2.4.


See here for more details.
Posted by: haertig

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/08/10 10:26 PM

That's good. I knew about that issue, but I thought it was still tied up because some idiots were holding it up for lack of an environmental study (???) Glad to know it finally went through!
Posted by: MartinFocazio

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/08/10 11:36 PM

I am forced here to insert the obligatory warning that goes with all gun threads.

The topic is already starting in the wrong forum....tread lightly.
Posted by: ponder

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/09/10 12:33 AM

Martin is correct. It is not a political issue. It is a survival issue.

The issue is being "Equipped To Survive".

There are many situations that require the survival tool to be in your hand. If you are 61 years old and sitting at the picnic table and the threat is between you and your camp trailer, you may have a bad day.

If you are 35 years old and feel yourself and your sleeping bag being dragged out of the tent, planning and equipment will determine your fate.

Both situations relate to Yellowstone and the Arizona excapees.

MANY SITUATIONS REQUIRE THE TOOL BE IN YOUR HAND! Not 5' away on the table. Not 20' away in the truck or closit. Not 2' away in your pack!

Pepper spray, firearms or other options may have saved the lives of recent victims. They may not have but the odds would have changed.

I hunt out of the Pacific Creek Campground at the NE corner of the Teton National Park. The "Inside the Bag" equipment is a 6 oz can of pepper spray and a Glock 10mm. The Glock would be my last choice if I was standing up and had 5 seconds to make another selection.

Both the bear attacks and the excapee attack offer some free thought material. Would you be a victim?
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/09/10 12:59 AM

Visitors do die within National Parks. Here is my tabulation for fatalities over the past couple of weeks, taken from the NPS Morning Report:

Twelve total fatalities - 3 in a plane crash, 1 suicide, 2 in motor vehicle accidents, 4 drownings, 2 falls (one while mountaineering). Also reported was successful use of bear spray by a NPS employee. This is a small sample, but I believe it is fairly representative. Falls and drownings are the preeminent hazards to visitors, year after year.

Posted by: ponder

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/09/10 01:36 AM

Originally Posted By: hikermor
Visitors do die within National Parks. Here is my tabulation for fatalities over the past couple of weeks, taken from the NPS Morning Report:

Twelve total fatalities - 3 in a plane crash, 1 suicide, 2 in motor vehicle accidents, 4 drownings, 2 falls (one while mountaineering). Also reported was successful use of bear spray by a NPS employee. This is a small sample, but I believe it is fairly representative. Falls and drownings are the preeminent hazards to visitors, year after year.



I am surprised that the NPS could accidently omit the recent Soda Butte bear attack - one dead, two serious - probably the most widely covered bear attack in many years.

(1 dead, 2 injured in bear attack at MT campground
The Associated Press - Matthew Brown - ‎Jul 28, 2010‎
COOKE CITY, Mont. — At least one bear rampaged through a heavily occupied campground Wednesday near Yellowstone National Park in the middle of the night, ...
Video: Bear Believed Responsible for Attack Is Caught The Associated Press
1 Dead, 2 Injured In Bear Attack At MT Campground CBS News
1 dead, 2 injured in bear attack at MT campground KTVQ Billings News
all 3,063 news articles »)
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/09/10 02:06 AM

Simple. Apparently the campground, while near Yellowstone, is not within the park. Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

More sriously, campground rules are likely to be very different within the park, as opposed to CGs in other jurisdictions.
Posted by: cedfire

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/09/10 04:42 PM

Originally Posted By: haertig
Surely the criminals wouldn't take their guns inside Yellowstone. There are signs saying they're not supposed to do that. All the Yellowstone campers are therefore safe, and need not worry.


You got it. No worries. Isn't the pen mightier than the sword, anyway? LOL cool
Posted by: MartinFocazio

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/09/10 04:57 PM

{deleted by request}
Posted by: haertig

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/09/10 05:43 PM

Probably time to close this thread then. I could not meet these requirements that have been set forth to justify talking about a whistle, much less a firearm. It might be best to start a policy that states "Any time the word gun or firearm is mentioned the thread will be closed". I would be fine with that. I wouldn't agree with it, but I would respect it. If that's what ETS forum wants, I understand.

BTW, I always carry a whistle on my hikes. When climbing one of Colorados 14'ers it's not so much needed for if you get lost. More so to warn traffic on the trail that you are stopping forward movement, lest you get stomped to death by the hoards.
Posted by: ponder

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/09/10 06:15 PM

I believe the thread has been hijacked!

The topic making current world news involves the threats against human lives posed by bears and escaped murderers in and about Yellowstone National Park.

If firearms or pepper spray are not equipment for survival, I don't know what is.

If there are those that are not comfortable with firearms, I most certainly recommend that they reframe from using them. They can always turn the other cheek. It works twice.
Posted by: ireckon

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/09/10 07:12 PM

Originally Posted By: martinfocazio
OK folks. Here's the Equipped angle on this.


QUESTION: Is a gun a valid piece of equipment to include in a survival kit given the most likely scenarios you'd encounter in a place like Yellowstone park?


THE ARGUMENT FOR:
If you think it IS a good and valid piece of equipment, please cite, with evidence, not hypothesis, past situations where a person successfully used a firearm in a survival-related matter while in a national park or similar wildland. Explain how the use of a firearm resulted in a person or persons surviving a situation that otherwise would have been fatal.


This video and article are self-explanatory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjHiu4RWMBk
http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/06/22/b-c-filmmaker-narrowly-escapes-grizzly-bear-attack/

=====

These cases are evidence of survival in an urban wilderness, which is appropriate given that this site has an Urban Preparedness Forum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtrgFtf8QY0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7k_12sNcio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfDB1eVIgZw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzGY3sQbeJk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mmnnOV1ZYc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDpGQKfnkVg

There are many more. These real cases may not fit squarely into your narrow requirements, but real life doesn't fit squarely into your narrow requirements either.
Posted by: MartinFocazio

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/09/10 07:16 PM

{deleted by request}
Posted by: ireckon

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/09/10 07:24 PM

Originally Posted By: martinfocazio
Ponder,

We have ample cases where pepper spray has been used against bears and human beings.

There have also been cases where human beings have used firearms in self-defense, and these are documented as well.

The subject at hand is "escaped murderers in national parks" as a threat potential for your visit to Yellowstone and so on.

If we take the class of people we're concerned with as
A. "escaped murderers" or the a sub-class within that set
B. "escaped murderers who kill others while escaped" or further refine that to
C. "escaped murderers who kill others while escaped and in national parks"

The decision factor here is if you consider scenario "C" as one that is of sufficient probability to warrant carrying a firearm or now.

You add to this risk assessment the threat level you see from aggressive wild animals, in particular bears and you then come up with a total threat level where you would consider a firearm a piece of gear worth the weight and size in your kit.

You then add in the utility of the tool against other threats you might face, including hunger or a need to signal others in an emergency.

In my threat assessment, scenario "C" is highly unlikely, however, threat levels from wild animals are higher, and the need to signal or obtain meat higher still. So in my assessment, "C" is one of the smallest factors that contributes to packing a firearm - but I do pack one because it's a versatile tool for more than one reason.


Above, you said real cases, not hypothesis.

Is it OK to discuss theories or not?
Posted by: MartinFocazio

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/09/10 07:55 PM

{deleted by request}
Posted by: ireckon

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/09/10 08:00 PM

Originally Posted By: martinfocazio
So, you advocate carrying a firearm, and you cited specific and object reasons why in support of your position.

Fits very, very well into my "narrow" definition and is a perfectly acceptable and good contribution to a volatile topic.

Thanks.


OK, it's hard to tell tone over the Internet. I originally thought you were trying to be impossible above. It's all good.
Posted by: ponder

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/09/10 09:19 PM

ireckon - you have an informative site. I recommend it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/iq201 is well worthwhile for those truely
"Equipped To Survive". If you mentally place yourself in the victims position, there is much to be gained.

Those biased against firearms will not benefit from the experiences of others.
They should watch -
http://www.youtube.com/user/iq201#p/u/43/C0vyxgJLJVA

Posted by: pezhead

Re: Guns in Yellowstone - 08/09/10 11:54 PM

To carry or not to carry is a personal choice. Some have already made this decision.