Nobody had a knife

Los Angeles County, 22 eastbound freeway in Gardena today. A lady was rear ended in her Chrysler Sebring. The car caught fire and she was unable to unlatch her retraint system. SEVERAL motorists stopped. Two produced fire extinquishers which had little effect on the blaze. They were all screaming " anybody got a knife? " Nobody had a knife. A motorcycle officer arrived. He had a knife. They were able to cut the belts and literally pull her out with burning hair as the tank finally popped.

Most people don't carry a knife..it's a shame IMO.

or enough water, warm clothing, fire starters.....

This isn't the first time this has happened. A couple of years ago, my uncle was telling me about almost an identical situation. Only I don't remember if the person in that one lived. Won't be the last time it happens either.

I think most people don't carry knives , especialy women . Knives , like guns , have become evil , scary objects to the flocks of PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. . The times I've produced a pocket knife , to sharpen a pencil , cut a piece of string or whatever , the reactions I've gotten have been sort of funny and sad . They have been shocked , surprised , their eyes widen , and some seem fascinated by the knife like it was some alien object , they want to see it , touch it . And , HOLY CRAP !!! , if I use an assisted open knife , the reactions are worse - " are you crazy ? what are you doing with a switch blade ? that knife is illegal ".

I used to do a lot of computer service work and had my first no name multitool. I pulled it out a few times to use the knife to open boxes containing the parts I was about to replace in the pc or printer and once got a reaction "Thats a knife!!". I tried to ask her how else I would cut the tape sealing the box her part was shipped in but she was far enough away she didn't even hear me by that time.

In The Netherlands they want to make a law that says every new car that is sold must have a life-hammer in it. (with a build-in seatbelt-cutter)

(THOSE are good laws )

How severe where the injuries of the woman?

Let them touch it...then you can show them your FAK to...

Hello,

One or two years ago, something similar happened here in Belgium, but the outcome was much worse.

A father on road with his two toddlers had an accident. The car got on fire. He could not open the belts of the kids seats in the backseat, because they were jammed. He repeatedly tried to free them until the heat/fire spread to far. There was nothing he could do. He was not as lucky as the lady in the above-mentioned accident. It must have been terrible for the him, not being able to do something.

A knife could have made all the difference.
A knife is a basic tool no one should be without.

This reminds me I was planning to put a knife in my wife's car. She's not very much into preparedness, but I will convince her to have at least one in the car (and hopefully start carrying one). Thanks for the article/reminder!

Vince.

I've given at least three girls I've dated, at their request, some sort of knife. Usually pocket knives, although the girl I'm dating now got a small mora. Nothing spreads the word about how important it is to have a knife like having one and carrying it.

I can't be bothered with a life hammer in my truck - let's see, 2 knives on me, one in the center console, an auto center punch in there too, FAK behind seat - another knife in there, plus a real hammer, flares etc, plus what's undet the cap in the bed....

What the heck am I going to do with a lifehammer?

Yes, as the other poster said, thanks for the reminder. I still don't everyday carry a knife after many years of hanging around in this forum. It's not that I have hoplophobia, far from it. But I procrastinate all the time. I'm thinking of getting a simple one-handed opening folding knife such as Doug's Benchmade knives. A knife that is slim and that I can easily conceal and clip it inside my pants securely, or something like that. I gave up the idea of carrying a bulky multitool.

Frankie

Folks like that are what we used to call job security, for a lot of different "civil servants," up to and including the coroner.

In my experience things like that (seat belt locking) are actually pretty uncommon, but I used my Spyderco Rescue to cut more than one belt to get unconscious people out of vehicles...

I always have at least one knife on my person (usually a multitool and a seperate knife), but I recently had added those little "Resqme" keychain gizmo's to each memeber of my families cars. I attached the tool to the top pivot of the seatbelt with a heavy plastic cable tie on the driver's left side so it's always accessible. This way there is a seat belt cutter and window punch right there. Just pull on it and the mounting bracket stays attached and the tool comes away in your hand....When I put them in (especially in my kids cars) everybody thought I was nut's. This kind of thing goes to show that even a little gadget like this could be a lifesaver.

Evan

And it doesn't have to cost a thing to put SOMETHING in your car. I had a couple retractable box cutters and a couple of hard eyeglasses cases around the house when I put my two vehicle kits together. The case is labeled large and on both sides "seatbelt cutter".

I second the thoughts about people overreacting to knives. My EDC knife is a basic LM with a blade launcher. I love it because it is super fast opening and not even spring loaded, but lots of people think it is some sort of switchblade, haha.

I use my knife and box cutter at work so many times a day that If I ever have to go anywhere where knives are not allowd (ER enterance, court, etc) that I get ansy (sp?). And to think that they have a million make shift weapons and of the biohazzard type easily scrounged is just a shame. Sometimes when I go to a mall or someplace that has "no weapons" signs, I feel I am going to be asked to leave or something. Pathetic but if the choice came to it, I would just shop somewhere else.

I had that effect one time. I handed them the box and told him "ok, you open it", and spent a few minutes explaining the safety and utility value of my kerabit to his much cuter female (and married, dangit) officemate.

I was nice, I gave him a band aid from my bag of tricks after stabbing himself in the hand with a pen trying.

Thats fine over your side of the Atlantic, this side knives are eeeeevil, people who carry knives are eeeevil and God forbid having one in your car if you stopped by the Plod.
I conside myself EEEEEVVVILLLL

So much for the myth that Americans are heavily armed monsters.

My reaction to "No Weapons" signs is that the knife I carry is not a weapon, it's a tool. Therefore, the signs don't apply.

Yes, I know that it's an argueable point in that a knife CAN be used as a weapon, but then again, so can a shoe. Most places of business require that shoes be worn and have signs at their entrances stating so. What are we to do when confronted with both of these contradictory signs?

Well, it seems that logic (skewed or otherwise) can also be used as a weapon. Let's see them try to ban logic. Oh wait, they already have in some places.

OK, enough of this, I need more coffee.

The Res-Q-Me is a small keychain size tool that combines a protected cutting blade and a spring loaded punch.
The blade is designed to safely cut seat belt webbing and the punch will break tempered side window glass. They work because the one I carry on my turnout coat has been used a number of times in training and actual MVAs. Res-Q-Me is readily available for under $10.00.
Another alternative is the protected blade cutter often used as a letter opener. Very cheap, I have even seen the as promotional freebees.
The one problem with the rescue hammer is the inability to swing them by a confined or injured survivor. No matter which you choose, keep it easily available. This is no time to rummage around in the glove box.
While I always carry a blade (or two), I've never seen an MVA where a combination of EMT shears and a shielded blade tool necessitated using a knife. Use a knife if that's all you have, but there is potential danger from a struggling entrapped victum.
And NO Jim, we don't need another government regulation, although the EU approch is to control everything. (" Everything is either required or prohibited.")

The woman will have to visit a style salon and try something short for the summer. The Sebring was completely burned out. Meanwhile, I forgot to mention watching a T 28 make an emergency wheels up landing on the beach as I was driving by. I called the news station to volunteer demonstrating various emergency cutters and referenced ETS. I was turned down. They had time to update Dannylynne and a movie in the works.

Saw that T-28 on the news. Funny way to surf...

Even if you don't buy a specialized rescue tool, or seatbelt cutter, and you don't EDC a knife, you could have a small partially-serrated folder clipped to the side of your seat, or in the center console that would make quick work of a seatbelt. I have one there for just that purpose, it's not my favorite, but, it'll do the job. For the faint of heart, some EMT cutters would probably do the trick too, and are handy if you need to cut a penny in half to make change at the tollbooth...

Two kids, wife and I each have a resq-me on our keyrings- The idea of cable-tieing to the seat belt attachment is a good one. I found the cheapest way to buy them was on EBAY. When you get a bunch (stocking stuffers) shipping becomes a small amt. per item.

By the way, my Dad's best friend died in his car when, while drinking, he got in a minor accident- wife got out- he couldn't get out of his belt and burned up even though several people tried to get him out.

I have a Gerber rescue knife in the glove compartment along with a leatherman wave, I bought 2 of the gerber rescues when they were on closeout at lowes for 10.99 the other I keep in my backpack. On my person I carry an Endura and Vic Swisstool rescue with the serrated blunt tipped blade. I think I might even buy a Benchmade ERT and put that with everything in my glove compartment. I get bone headed responses from alot of people but then I know that if something happens I'm going to have options and probably survive while they most likely wont.

Can anyone 'splain to me why seatbelts seem to be so prone to jamming on impact?

If I were to design a seatbelt buckle, I would make sure that it would still operate after being subject to a load equal to the breaking strength of the webbing, no?

Good question, I'm kinda wondering the same thing. Is cutting the seatbelt a common occurance? I would hope the seatbelt buckle would operate flawlessly after a high stress situation. Maybe they don't release while under load? I don't know. I wonder if the airline style seatbelts, with the lever instead of the button, are more reliable after an impact. Seems like a lot of the racing belts are like that, rather than the button type that you find in cars.

Well, the problem sometimes is actually being able to reach/find the buckle. Been to a crash scene? Cars get a little, shall we say, reorganized. Also, when someone's potentially injured, it's just more expedient and often safer to cut away things, clothing too.

Don't worry and cut that belt anyway :
AFAIK, after an accident, seat belts are no longer usable.
When I need that kind of large strap, I ask my favorite mechanic and he let me go and cut belts out of crashed cars, as he cannot re-use them.

I can guarantee that they will release under load. I've been hanging upside down in a pickup & it released with no problem. It hadn't been subjected to a lot of stress but was under load.

I shutter to think of living in an area where people have that kind of reaction to seeing a knife (much less a gun). I live in a area where carrying a knife is the rule rather than the exception, and ccw is readily accepted. I grew up in places where knives and guns are just another tool. It's hard for me to think of them as anything else.

Other than eBay, where is a good online store for the ResQMe? I've tried Ace Hardware to no avail. Thanks!

Their website: http://www.resqme.com/ lists a bunch of online sources, there's a where to buy section, try: http://www.nov8safety.com/buy/resqme.htm

Sorry, this may seem like a funny thing to write, but it's truly just for the sake of something to ponder, but not of course to interfere with the saving of a desparate person's life.

I had occasion to be sued one time because my neighbor's Doberman jumped over his front yard fence and bit the mailwoman who was putting my mail in my front door slot. Of course, I was extremely upset about being named in the suit (particularly since I picked up her dumped mail, bandaged her hand, and called her supervisor for her), however a lawyer friend of mine said that I had involved myself in the incident, therefore making myself potentially culpable for any fallout from the incident, including being named in the suit by the mailperson who I had helped. My lawyer friend told me I would have been perfectly within my rights to let her bleed all over my front doorstep and do nothing. I imagine the person (or persons) trying to aid a trapped motorist in a burning vehicle also might be similarly culpable if things didn't turn out so good.

Again, just a thought, not necessarily a reason to avoid helping a fellow human in a desparate situation.

This goes back to research do in the 1960's and 1970's by the Department of Transport (D.o.T.) in the UK. They were trying to establish why so many car accidents where fatal.
One of the things that came out of those tests was the very poor design of the seat belt's. The seat belt is intended to keep the driver/passenger in the seat, which under most circumstances is the safest place for them.
They discovered that the actual locking mechanism's failed under peak loads. That meant that the belt would effectivly break. With fatal consiquences.
They redesigned and tested various designs before settling on the current design. If the current lock fails, the parts in the lock itself fail in such fashion as to jam the lock closed. Thus preventing the occupant being throw from the seat.
Ofcourse the downside of that you very occasionally get a situation in which some one is then trapped in the seat.
It should be understood by anyone reading this that not using a seatbelt or using a design that does not jam closed WILL BE FATAL in a crash.

Rather than leave it designed to fail & jam, why not design the parts to exceed the webbing strength like they should have in the first place?

Shhhhhh!!!!!!!!

COMMON SENSE ALERT!!! COMMON SENSE ALERT !!!

WARNING!!! WARNING!!! WARNING!!! WARNING!!!

This is not a drill, you have been caught in the act of espousing forth with a common sense statement!!!

Cease and desist all such future actions and transgressions immediately or you'll be questioned by your local NATIONAL THOUGHT CONTROL POLICE DEPARTMENT (NTCPD)!!

This is the only warning that you will receive!!

Because it would cost more money. Remember, this is from an industry that went kicking and screaming when the belts were mandated in the first place and again when airbags were required.

Last I looked, no state had a "Good Samaritan" law, so you definitely could have left here there to bleed. But you apparently have a concience. Good for you.

Generally, if you do help, you aren't liable unless you make the person's situation worse (Jump, I'll catch you). However, not being liable isn't the same as not being sued. Hope your homeowners insurance picked up the legal fees.

Remember, it's 98% of lawyers that give the rest of us a bad name.

Actually, many (all?) of them do have laws by that name, but I don't think any of them compel you to render aid. They protect you from law suits if you are providing aid in a nonprofessional capacity and don't exceed what a common person would have done. IE, no chainsaw amputations for a broken arm or such general stupidity, but if I accidentally break your arm pulling you out of your car while it is upside down in the river in February, you can't sue me.

They had to redesign it several times anyway.



The amount of steel to make all the buckles in the car right would probably have changed the price < $1 per car compared to the cost of the way they did it at today's prices for steel especially when bought in the quantities they would use if all the models were standardized to the new version. Compared to the class action lawsuit that someone that has found this out could hit them with?

I have to agree about kicking & screaming over airbags. Popular Science or Mechanics released the figures in the late 80's/early 90's about the differences in survival rates. They compared not having either, only airbag, only seatbelt, and both seatbelt & airbag. Adding the airbag in addition to the seatbelt only gained about 4%. If one of these deploys when it isn't needed (parking lot fender bender) could cost some serious cash to replace it & get all the powder out.

Well that's exactly the problem. If they did redesign it and said, "oh yeah, they used to jam so we fixed it so it wouldn't" that would open them up to liability. So they're damned if they fix it, damned if they don't, but it probably costs less if they don't. It's the Formula right? Probability of occurrence x Cost of each lawsuit x Number of cars with defect < Cost of doing recall or fixing the problem. Besides, each dollar you spend on something that doesn't actually sell the car is taken away from things that do, like styling, features, lower price, advertising etc. And unfortunately, this principle applies to all industries, baby carriages, food, medicine...

I'm not trying to defend the auto industry or their practices because they suck. I think the lesson here is not to expect that anyone, except yourself, is looking out for your interests. Thus, everyone should have a belt cutter or knife and basic survival tools. If you really want to increase survivability in car wrecks, put in a roll cage, 5 point harness and wear a nomex suit and helmet. Flinging your body around the land in a metal box at 70mph powered by flammable liquid is rather dangerous but we do it everyday so we think it's safe.

And deliberately designing one that will fail and jam doesn't?

I'm thinking more like design it to function right & hold rather that redesign it to jam. Since most of us don't know that it was designed to jam if it failed, we wouldn't have known that it was redesigned not to fail instead of jam. Replacements in the 60's/70's would have been a lot less than some of the mistakes they've owned up to later. Back then most families probably had only one car instead of two or more like today. This was the era when Detroit was rolling in money.

It's not that I expect them to look out for my interest as it is professional standards. Designing a buckle that can't stand the same load as straps it's connected to is poor design & unprofessional. Connections should be designed to withstand the same or greater load than the connecting members.

The only advertising that has sold me any of my vehicles was the last one had a web site that I could look at while trying to get one on the truck. The first three were what I could afford (used). The truck was based on knowing how the previous model performed as a work truck. The last one was a Toyota hybrid Camry. I heard form somewhere that they were coming out with a hybrid model about April, researched it and hybrids in general in May, & started looking for a way to get what I wanted in June.

What percentage of crashes involve a fire? Not the potential for a fire, that's like asking how many police calls are "man with a gun" situations, but actual fires. Very few- they are a fluke.

How many crashes involve being thrown about or out of the cabin? I don't have an exact number, but a lot more than those that involve a catastrophic combustive failure of the gas tank. By a lot.

I'd rather be hanging upside down in my car for an hour than being tossed out the window. Particularly if the car is still rolling, and in my direction. "Failsafe" is a term of the art- if it's going to bust, it is going to bust in a manner that ensures the greatest safety to the user.

I've heard from several people that the forces and torques on a car can be pretty incredible in an accident. The rule I've heard is that don't assume anything not tied down will still be there. Applying that to the folder clipped to the side of the seat, I think in a serious accident there's a very good chance it will come flying out (possibly opened?). I've heard the same thing about the glove box -- expect it to fly open and everything to spill out. I think this kind of approach -- clipped to seat, sitting in glove compartment -- is great for more minor stuff, but don't rely on being able to find it in a more serious accident or a rollover.

Cable-tied to the seatbelt seems like a good solution, though aesthetically I'm not sure I can live with it! I don't have any good solutions other than making sure you have a knife or Res-Q-Me in your pocket, where you know it'll stay. Just thought I'd pass along the advice about "everything that's not nailed down will fly around" that I've heard.

One problem with keeping the tool in your pocket or having a knife clipped in your waistband is that is exactly where the seatbelt presses if you're inverted. So you may not be able to get it out when you need it most. An alternative location to attach the belt cutter may be the thick cable that supports the buckle, you're going to be groping there anyway.

I remember reading about a DUKW (an ex-navy amphibious vehicle) being used as a "tour boat" that sank in Hot Springs, Arkasas. Due to a full-length canopy, 13 people (three of them children) couldn't get out and drowned. A simple pen knife would've made short work of those plastic window. This nonsence of 'things' being bad has got to stop.

Honestly, you're probably just hearing the horror stories. I worked 8 years in an ambulance, and not once had to cut a person from their seat belt.

Having just flown in a recent Cessna 172 today, I can see the usefulness of some means of cutting out since the releases are on the outside near the door. If a crash impact were to deform the cabin in such a way where you couldn't get your hand between the door and seat, there's little other way to get out of the belt, especially if the inertia wheel(s) are still locked.

Cars may not be a huge issue, but certain planes might be.

Sounds good, and I'm happy for both you and your former patients...but others here have. I too can personally attest to folks being cut out of seatbelts. I can also personally attest to a woman drowning in her car in about 5-6 feet of water due to a flooded underpass and a clogged storm sewer...and her inability to get out of the car. Yes...it isn't the norm. To an extent I agree with you...but that's exactly the point. If we're preparing for the norm, we're not preparing for anything. We all have the line we draw as to what is reasonable preparation and for whatever the reasons. However the seatbelt thing has happened enough that fire, search & rescue, and cops carry cutters. Could something that is so uncommon have spawned the wide array of cutters on the market over the years? It's food for thought. But to me, $20 per car (1 for each side) is cheap insurance for the seatbelt issue, and that of submerged cars.

My experiences w/civilian & military aircraft makes me believe that a jammed seatbelt/harness will not be a concern if the cockpit frame has been "modified" as a result of a hard landing that didn't necessarily use the wheels and/or a runway.

There have also been a lot of seat belt recalls over the years, I wonder how many of the jammed belts were in vehicles which had recalls but were never taken to get the replacements.
An unfortunate side effect of the stories of jammed seat belts is people like my MIL and SIL refuse to wear them using those stories as an excuse (of course they also have an excuse for not using a turn signal too).

I thinl they are not supposed top do that. i tried to buy one ata junk yard to fix to the underside of my seat for a strap to hold things in place and they wouldn't sell it to me since it was a liability issue.

Remember they need to also keep it simple. If they design it stronger it may take more pressure to buckle or unbuckle and then consumers wouldn't use them.

Unfortunatly people are like that everywhere and the person sitting in the next desk beside here would just ask somehting like is that the new wave or old one.
Wife had some girls over one night to study for a college test and they were talking about how guns were unnecessary and such, I told her afterward I wanted to go get one of mine to clean it at that time and she didn't think that would have been as funny as I. Those same college girls are the ones who would think a knife is evil too then borrow her leatherman squirt to cut a string off their clothes.
Pre 9/11 I used to go into the supreme court building of our state to work on computers/printers and wuld take my leatheran with me. Every once and a while the guard would tell my I can't take it so I would ask if they were providing me tools to do my job and would always be allowed to take it in then.

You are right : they are not supposed to sell such seatbelts from a crashed car, to be used again, as seatbelts.
But I guess cuting it off the car and then in shorter lengths to replace a strap on a bag is not a problem. And it effectively prevents using it ever again as a seatbelt !

Not the first time, won't be the last. A few years back (again in SOCAL) a crash on the 78 had motorists looking for some way to cut the belt keeping people in their car (young kid in the back seat IIRC). It seems that more and more often no one carries a knife when they should be a common tool. I bought one of the fully serrated Spyderco rescue models just to leave in my truck console as a just-in-case. Everyone should have a back-up to their seatbelt release.

RAS, I'm just currently on the market for a Spyderco knife (probably the Endura). I was just wondering if it should be 50/50 serrated. Can you easily cut seatbelts with a plain edge?

Thanks
Frankie

It usually takes a VERY sharp plain edge to cut thru seatbelt material in a short time, while a serrated edge will zip thru with ease...

I was a highway cop for 30+ years, and the only times I ever had to cut anyone out of a seatbelt was when the vehicle was overturned, and it was very difficult to try to hang on to them while reaching under them to find the buckle. I never saw a jammed buckle, but did see one from time to time that failed to stay buckled after impact...

Last private aircraft crash I was at, all four occupants were ejected, still belted to their seats. The seats themselves were ripped from the craft...

Geezes, what kind of aircraft was it?

I've never tried it, but if I needed to turn a plain edge knife into a seatbelt slicer I'd take a sharp knife and give it a toothy edge on coarse stone. From what I've seen, a polished edge slides on nylon webbing rather than biting in. A coarse toothy edge should allow it to bite in. Never tried it, that's why I bought the Spyderco Rescue. An Endura with a 50/50 blade should do a fine job and would be a good general purpose blade. OTOH, I EDC only plain edge knives. The serrated knife I have is in the truck console.

Piper Cherokee if I recall correctly. It took off at night from a private airport, began a left turn, lost altitude, dug the wingtip in, and cartwheeled for a while. One passenger was still alive when I got there minutes later. She had more compound fractures than I could count, in places you are not supposed to see compound fractured, was thankfully unconscious, and died before I could even begin treatment...

Interesting.........
I was dragooned into a trip on the river last year. Being paranoid about these things -according to the PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER.- I put my foot down about a couple of things:
1) We ain't sitting down stairs.
2) I'm taking my Ritter Mk1 with me.

If it went pearshaped I am going to:
a) Cut a hole in the sun canopy real quick (if Im have to).
b) Not fart about trying work out how the "security" tiedowns on the carley floats/liferafts work. The straps are going to meet their maker real quick.

Of course, this being the UK, I would have been nicked for possesion of an offencive weapon. Reasonable excuse or not.