Would it be out of line

I have noticed that everybody gives a lot advice about equipment but not techniques and sometimes I see questions or remarks that cry out to be answered not by equipment but by simple survival techniques. Am I wrong assuming that most everyone on ETS knows at least the basic survival techniques? My question is would it be considered out of line to point that out?

Every one of us can learn from every other one here. Don't hesitate to jump in.

Naw, I think it is probably a germain topic.

I also think the reason you see more about equipment and less about technique is because it is far easier to show than to tell, and because most of us assume that the folks joining this site are already researching the how-to's and/or already possess the skills and mindset to implement the basic tools.

It is kinda like building recipes I reckon. At the top you usually list the components, and below that the technique, or directions for use. Most of us probably know how to properly utilize a flashlight, and the controls on most of them are fairly straightforward, so then the conversation tends toward where and when more than how. Things like GPS and orienteering and firestarting do require more of the how, but again that is back to the basics, and there's plenty out there for technical review that elaboration in the forum may not be as practical. Inevitably someone will post a link for the more elaborate, less intuitive applications, so I guess it is natural to expect to see a lot more posting here about equipment and the circumstances under which it is disvovered or deployed, and not so much about how to actually make the thing work.

The ETS front end does have a lot of how to info, and there's lots more out there if you browse around some. It seems to me that this forum is more of a "gee, what do you think of this?" kinda arena. More to call our attention to the various aspects of survival than to try and train each other on technique, but still I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more of it as well. There is also a point of subjectivity to technique, which incites debate at times, and makes for good discussion.

No, I believe there are quit a few ETS members/readers who do not know and/or have not practiced basic survival techniques. It's pretty obvious from, some posts, a lot of individuals are simply gear freaks or plan to depend on the "toys" to solve any and all survival related problems.

"There is nothing so frightening as ignorance in action."

Not out of line, however the forum is called [color:"red"]EQUIPPED[/color] to Survive <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />.

Not at all out of line. The reasoning of "we're gear, not technique" is a valid one, but also becuase a lot of techniques are "hands on" thing. I mean, I can show you how to strip a computer down to a case and boards easier than I can tell you, or how to field strip an Garand or a .45.

And there is also the issue of if you give someone directions, you feel (or are) responsable for what happens to them. That's why whenever anyone asks about herbal medicine and edible wild plants, I say nothing- I don't want to give someone a discription, and have it turn out to be a little off for what I ment but spot on for a leathal something in thier area.

Very true, in my opinion. I resemble that post to some degree. I have some skills and I camp alot (ok, I think it's alot), and I try to practice techniques when I can. But between work and family, and all the chores, practicing by itself is very sporadic. There is a ton of stuff that I mentally muse over, even when camping and practicing, but that I don;t really have "experience" with. Even camping: I don;t take the family out when it's 20 degrees and there's 6" of snow on the ground. It's too cold! <------evidence that I am lacking in certain preparedness skills. No, we go camping in the "other three" seasons.

Alot of the gear that I have was not necessarily purchased because of a real need, just a desire to be prepared, without really having the experience of A) needing it during an emergency; B) recognizing that I needed it; C) purchasing it; and D) practicing with it and having it ready for the next emergency.

I think this is a good thread and I'd like to read and participate in a few or more threads involving "technique and experience".

The equiped part is what got my attention but all the equipment in the world won't help if you don't know how.

Everyone remember that magic moment when you first pedaled a bicycle unaided? What about the moment when your bowdrill finally burst into that small miracle of red ember? How about figuring out the earned income credit on your T...... , well the first two demonstrate how somethings are still part of real world dirt time. Of course this is a valid topic. It's just a little more difficult in translation.

Very valid question. I think "equipped" means gear AND knowledge. I participate in the forum to learn something even more than to see some very nice gear that I will HAVE to end up buying. Hey but nothing wrong with that either (if the wife doesn't find out how much I spent <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />). No there is nothing wrong with gear at all, but you have to learn how to use it.

The question is not out of line, but I think you need to define what you mean by "basic survival techniques", because I don't think they mean the same thing for everyone. For example, I know how to make a bow drill and am familiar with the concept of flint knapping a knife. But I don't practice either one. Why? Because I do not intend to be caught anywhere without multiple blades and firemaking tools on my person. Ever. Please note that I am in no way denigrating those who do. Some people obviously enjoy doing so and I say more power to them. It's just that such activities don't hold the same interest for me.

So what does everyone else consider "basic survival techniques"? I'm thinking navigation with map and compass, debris shelter building, identifying a safe water source, basic first aid, and maybe food procurement. Others?

Fire-starting and signalling

I didn't mean that we should open a thread to cover any and all survival situations. I was only stating that a lot of people in these threads seem to indicate a high dependence on equipment seemingly without much experience using the equipment or basic skills. I don't believe you have to be to the point of using using a bow to start a fire. I mean simply being able to start a fire with a single match or flint and tinder, finding alternate water sources ect.. All the equipment in the world dosen't take the place of knowlage. I love my toys and I have some great equipment that make my survival in emergency situations that much more comfortable. But I know I am able (from experience) that I am able to survive without it.

raydarkhorse,

I think I get what you are saying and agree whole heartedly. Hopefully relevant but maybe more of a rant than anything so I apologize in advance.

I went XC-Skiing a few weeks ago and we opted for the comfort of a rented cabin instead of toughing it out in the snow. More of a social event for the group than anything. Because of the simplicity of the trip and cabin accommodations we had a few book learned outdoors people along in addition to real experienced outdoors people.

We got back to the cabin late so I volunteered to start a fire in the fire place. We had ample cut, split and seasoned wood stacked neatly in the woodshed ready for our use. We had matches, lighters, newspaper…mort than enough stuff to start 100 fires. Pretty much the most ideal situation you will ever come across for starting a fire.

I gathered all of the appropriate items to get this thing started and went to work. I figured just a minute or two and we could all start warming up. Then not 30 seconds into crumpling newspaper for tinder one of the armchair outdoorsmen started advising me that I was doing things wrong and he had never read anything about the way I was going about things. Well usually that’s ok and I would be happy to kindly guide a person through proper fire starting techniques but the attitude I had been getting all day from Mr. know it all had finally gotten to me.

I backed away without a word, handed him the matches and said please show us how it’s done. (he had NEVER started a fire before as I found out later) We all watched him work in vane for about ½ hour before I finally asked if it would be ok if I gave it another shot because we were all getting a little cold.

I started the fire and I am sure I embarrassed him but I guess he did get somewhat of an education.

In retrospect I feel a little bad about it and I should have taken some time to explain a few things to him but boy I’ll tell ya he sure had a high and mighty opinion of himself and his book learning skills the whole day and it did feel a little good to bring him back to reality.

All said I think a few of the people with us learned that just reading about a survival process is a lot different than actually doing something.

End of Rant.

I will try and be more patient in the future but man he was under my skin.

Cameron

Fire starting with matchs and/or lighter, basic first aid, and having a clue about your anticipated enviroment. If it isn't urban, then how to camp (even car camping, BUT NOT WITH AN RV).

If someone has no clue about this stuff, my reaction would be the same if they were to suddenly pop up on an AT or PT forum- why are you here? I can forgive someone who averages about four matches to get a fire lit- that's learning how to use the gear, you have the basic concept. People who hold a bic under a soggy hemlock branch on the other hand.....

Cameron, you perfectly in line. Pain, discomfort and embarresment are excellent teachers. YOu let him get unfomfortable (he was cold, others were annoyed becuase he was making them saty cold) and embarrased (foot-in-mouth syndrome). So he learned he was wrong before things progressed to the "pain" stage, which is usually pass fail.

Did he watch you light the fire, or did he fail to be a student of his errors and your knowledge?

But more to the point of the overall thread, this is a perfect example of why I don't like the idea of very basic techniques here- I can tell you how to build a fire, but if you don't actually make one, then you probably can't. But you think you can.

It's exremely difficult to teach or share "field craft" via the internet. I understand what you are talking about but I don't see how to resolve the issue without turning it in to another "Field and Stream" example of an attempt at teaching field craft gone wrong sort like thier last quiz (Not that I don't like Field and Stream, as I do enjoy F&S its just that field craft that works in the NE desn't always translate to Rocky Mountains and visa-versa).

The way I see it is like this,
1. I can not teach you field craft over the net.
2. I can talk about gear I have used that can help mitigate the field craft learning curve.
3. I think everyone, or at least I hope everyone, understands that NOTHING is as good as hands on time.
4. For somepeople on here, hands on time is impracticle to impossible (I fully realize how lucky I am to have the acess to the outdoors that I do, I've known guys who the closest to woods they have ever been is the Outdoor Network) and the best they can do is go gear heavy to compensate.

This is the kinda thing I'm talking about, I read everything I can about a lot of subjects but reading it isn't the same as doing.

Ironraven,

Can't say if he was paying attention or not. I was agravated and focusing on just getting the fire started. Not to mention 8 pair of eyes boaring a hole in my back waiting for a fire........now that I think of it how embarrassing would It have been if I didn't get that sucker flaming on the first try? <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Cameron

Sometimes letting a person fail, (in a safe environment) is a great way to get the light to go on in their head.

One of the interesting things that happens every year with our boys doing their first Wilderness Survival trip is that they always seem to think it's going to be easier than it is at first. They figure that if us old dad's can go and camp for the weekend with just what's in our pockets and get by, how tough could it be for them? Most of them have a first night that's cold, maybe a little wet, and then they get smarter!

In this case, the adult instructors go through the same scenario as the boys. (Except that we have all used/practiced/worked with that small collection of items in our pockets, and maybe fanny pack, many times before.) When we hike into the site, the adults pick an area, and the boys pick an area. Not far apart, but, enough that they are working independently on their "shelter", fire, etc. After a couple hours, we go see how they are doing. Most of them have something cobbled together. They won't be comfortable, but, they'll live. Then they come visit our camp... the eyes start taking in a much more "comfortable" picture. Then they spend another hour before dark trying to make some "housing upgrades".

Unfortunately, we can no longer teach how to cook snakes, frogs, rabbits, etc. Politically incorrect. <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> We explain how to do it, but, until you actually do it, you just don't get it.

The lasting lessons are ones where you have to actually accomplish something with your own hands. I still remember the old woodsman that taught me to cool off your edible small game in a river, because when you skin it, flees and bugs will tend to leave the cool flesh alone, where they will be all over freshly killed warm exposed meat in a heartbeat. I knew that, because we had caught a rabbit, and skinned it immediately, and then had the flea patrol to deal with. He always cleaned stuff in the river anyway, so as not to attract skunks and raccoons later that night with the remnants.

Another time when I was a boy, a friend's dad showed us how to smoke squirrel meat. He also demonstrated that on a cold weekend, meat you caught Friday that had maggots on it Sunday morning was still ok if you cut off the part the maggots were on. (Then he ate the maggots, and we all had to try to eat them too...protein I guess, he said they are just bug larvae anyway, and like most things, he said they'd taste like chicken...well, they didn't taste like chicken, more like a cross between pungent tasting jello and dirt. Still, now I know that I could eat them and live if I needed to, although I'd need to be pretty hungry.) Where the heck do maggots come from anyway?

After all that, what do we learn? Well, the boys always seem to have a better assortment of gear with them when they camp/hike after the Wilderness Survival course. They know how hard it is to improvise, and so they understand the importance of the right equipment. They know that they could get by without some of it if they are healthy, uninjured, and the conditions are good, but, what if any of those things change?

It's actually fun to do this stuff if you're in the right frame of mind, I'm kinda lucky I get to teach it. I have to say, however, that my wife is never really pleased to see my son and I when we return from one of these adventures...we have to enter thru the garage, none of that "campfire/dirt/guy/baked bean" smell is getting into our house!

When you make a solar still you make several (as many as you have material for), if you add plant material to it it increases your out put. Besides when you don't have any water making a little is better than none.

Hmm,

Sometimes I wonder if my responses are just lost in translation, or if people get tired of reading my dribble, or if I just missed the point altogether.

I may have to change my nom de plume to Mongo.

I think there are a couple of different reasons why people mostly talk about gear and not techniques. The simplest answer is, gear is just more fun to talk about, and people want to read about things that interest them. I'm a self admitted gear freak, I love looking at, playing with, and reading about new gear. I love to surf the internet for cool new gear, but I don't really surf too much on survival techniques, mainly because it's the same old information. Honestly, how often to survival techniques change? You can only read about making fires with bow drills or lean-to shelter so many times, it's been done for hundreds of years with almost no changes, so that's probably why you don't see a new topic on it every week. Technique is something that you just need to practice on your own time and unless it's something new that hasn't been discussed before, probably woulnd't make interesting reading. For example, I've tried most all the firestarting techniques, and some of the shelter building ones and whatnot. Almost all the information had been covered here before, so I didn't feel the need to write up the same experiences that everyone had. It's just not that interesting for anyone else. And when I read about someone else doing it, I'll skim through the post, but most of the time if there's nothing new, I won't feel the need to comment on it either. So even though technique is extremely important, just like toilet paper, it doesn't make for a very interesting discussion.

The other reason there isn't too much discussion about techniques is becaues how to you define what is essential survival knowledge? What techniques are you talking about? As other people mentioned, there aren't many common techiques that would apply to everyone on this board, it depends a lot on your location and what you consider important for survival. Almost everybody associates survival with being stranded in a "perfect" forest, with plenty of wood around to build a fire and shelter, near a stream where they could catch fish, and small animals running about just waiting to be trapped. But in my situation (which could be unique, or very common), a lot of these "survival" techniques, such as knowing how to trap and skin small animals, just wouldn't be a very useful skill. It's not that I wouldn't mind learning, but for someone else in the city, in the desert, in the ocean, a skill just wouldn't come in very handy. Same thing could apply to solar stills, building fires with bow drills, or even shooting a gun (I know this might be blasphemous to some). Everyone has a different priority on what they consider a "necessary" survival skill or technique. No matter how much you've practiced, when the time comes to use it chances are it won't be under the same situations that you've practiced in. About the only essential skill that i think is necessary is knowing how to improvise with whatever you have at the time.

Not lost. Not tired. Not missed.

Keep those cards and letters coming Mongo!!!

I've probably started to make a reply to this thread about three times, then stopped and really couldn't finish because the point I was trying to make was incomplete.

Now that I've finally gathered my thoughts, it all boils down to the fact that I think the "technique versus equipment" is a moot discussion. Knowledge (technique) and equipment go hand-in-hand. Almost all survival equipment that I can think of is used to improve upon previous existing technique.

For example, let's examine the survival necessity of water procurement and preparation. The "basic" technique (without equipment) is to either build a filter with layered sand, clay, and so forth or find a natural container and boil it. Equipment, like a purpose-built water filter, purification tablets, and camp cups/pots simply make it easier to accomplish the same task.

This basic idea seems predominant in many categories of survival:

• Shelter: foliage versus a tarp; animal hide versus a sleeping bag.
• Fire: Rubbing sticks together versus a match.
• Food: Beaning a rabbit with a stick versus an MRE.
• Tools: Flint knapping versus a knife.
• Medical: Aloe and a leaf versus a band-aid.
• Signaling: Screaming versus a PLB.

Granted, some of these "primitive" techniques are not discussed as much as the necessary knowledge that comes with using modern equipment. However, a lot of those most basic techniques are very difficult to teach verbally. (I dare you to go out and give it a shot after simply reading a description. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />) All of this equipment that is discussed was created because "necessity is the mother of all invention". Using primitive technique, while time honored and true, is not your "best" option under the stress of a survival situation when proper equipment can save your butt so much faster and effectively. Should the basic techniques be learned? Absolutely, because when all else fails, you'll always have something to fall back on.

WOW!!! You are a fortunate man. We didn't have a garage when my son and I came home from those wonderful weekends - my wife made us strip outside and took the hose to us. (of course we lived on a farm with no neighbors around)

My point is that there are a lot of people that are asking what can I buy to do something instead of how can I do it. Most people are concerned about the weight of their BOB. Knowledge of how to do these things don't weigh anything and makes using what equipment you do have easier. Buying the best tent on the market won't help you if you pick the wrong place to put it up. Having your snares won't help if you put them in the wrong place. Knowing the basics will help no matter what kind of equipment you have. Instead of asking what else can I buy first learn to use what you have and improvise if you have to. When I first started learning after class room studies we were set out in an area for three days with our knowledge, a knife, and a couple of matches. After we mastered the "BASICS" then we started learning to use other equipment. Knowing how to store your food is great unless you don't have it to store then you might want to be able to find it. Knowing how to treat water is great or having the filters to clean it is better, but do you know how to find it. If your in the mind set that you might need a survival kit then how can you over look the need to know how to do with out it. I want my equipment and much prefer to have it but if every thing was lost tomorrow I can make it with out it can you? That is what I want every one to ask them selves.

Yeah, we have an outside shower, we live at the beach. Usually it's for rinsing off the salt and sand, but, after a camping trip, you might think we were prisoners going through delousing... Thank goodness I have to shut that off in winter, so the pipes won't freeze... otherwise she might have had us out there 2 weeks ago! Now that would be cold.

I believe that the basic point is that it is better to have a certain, quite small, weight of equipment about your person in order to improve your chances of coming out of a situation head up, rather than feet first. Usually defined as Knife, Torch, Whistle, Signal Mirror, Survival Kit etc.

What that situation is likely to be, can it be avoided and how best to get out of it?......
That's another problem entirely.
And that is where the discussion starts...........

Ray, to use one of your examples, I'll explain why what I think you are expecting isn't going to be really feasable:

Finding water.

Where I am, you have to actively seek a place where there isn't a pond, brook, stream or spring within a half mile in any direction. So the clues I look for when I need water are about as helpful to someone in say, Arizona or New Mexico, as a porcupine in balloon blowing contest. On the other hand, someone where there are more mines has worries I don't. And someone who needs to know about seawater doesn't need my advice, because other than distilling it all you can do is reverse osmosis rigs.

Oh, wait, that's gear, and you don't want to talk about gear.

Am I the only one that travels? And once again I LIKE MY EQUIPMENT AND LIKE HEARING AND TALKING ABOUT IT but having your toys does not replace knowing what to do. Just for the fun of it what do you do if you are flying and there is an accident and afterwards you have to survive outside the area of the country you live in? I understand the possibility is remote but have ever got on a plane, bus, or other modes of transportation and traveled outside your immediate area and what your familiar with. Remember that on public transportation you won't have you BOB. I'm sorry if this offends anyone but one of the things this forum should do is make you ask WHAT IF. Knowing what to do in your area is great but unless your sure you will never leave that area you should want to know the how to for other places. An emergency may not occur where it is convenient for you and with out knowledge, you’re screwed. Your gear should be a supplement to your one and only true survival tool, your mind.

raydarkhorse, I’m kind of a gear nut to, I came to this site to help me learn as much as possible for worst case scenarios as well as other sites I visit. I agree with the others as to the best thing you can ever have with you at all times is your knowledge. I work all the time and try to get out and camp when I can get time and try to learn as much as I can from everybody. I had went to a Jest (Jungle Environment training School) school in the Philipines while I was in the Marine Corp back in ‘84 many years ago. Although I wish I could have stayed in that school a month, unfortunately it was only for a day due to our mission parameters. But in that day they gave us a Bolo knife and we stayed out in the jungle and was shown food, water, shelter fire, etc..
In the jungle over there was like a supermarket compared to here, over here I’d be in trouble. They showed us how to make fire by bamboo, and they could start a fire faster than I could flick a bic, but I tried an hour that night while sleeping by the fire they built and could not get a fire started by rubbing the two bamboo pieces together with the fibers for tinder . But I did learn that with the knowledge, you can survive in any terrain with just your knowledge. All we had was a bolo (Made out of a leaf spring) at the time and that made things a lot easier. One day, I would like to go to a bush craft school and learn a lot about bow drills, fire plows, fire pistons, trapping, food finding etc.. but in the mean time, I’m trying to build a better BOB for emergencies. We’ve been through several hurricanes a year in Fla. As well as tornados, etc.. But I always like being near a source of water, even salt and the heat hear buys me more time than if I was up north in 0 degree weather. I have desalinizers (Katadyn Survivor 35 off of $250 Ebay new military) and portable distillers for the salt water as well as Steripen adventure for viruses and Katadyn Combi Plus for chemicals. After the hurricane hit us the one year, we were without anything for weeks and we were getting low on water so I told my wife never again, so we are backed up to the extreme. I searched the internet for a long time to buy these things real cheep and was fortunate not to invest a lot for this equipment. We have 55 gallon plastic barrels as back ups, the ocean and lakes. I keep everything in a pack that stays with me. I am a little paranoid on the water I guess, anyway I’m sorry for the book I just wrote but every once in awhile I like to vent. Knowledge is the best tool you could ever had and there are members here who have a very valuable tool, and I’m tryibg to learn as well. You can never learn enough!

I wish someone could tell me how to make a fuzz stick, everytime I try all I get is a lot of little shavings on the ground, but that has worked ofr me. but I would still like to make a fuzz stick, maybe it's the wood I use don't know???

The idea is to leave all the little wood shavings attached to the wood, thereby increasing the surface area. Dunno if that helps.

big_al, Here was a brief article I had found, I've been trying what your probably doing and having no luck either. I had tried to light a fuz stick with the flint steel rod and only got a small amber to light but could not get it to continue in the nest. I had used a ton of sparks before that had happened and haven't been successfully in duplicating it again. If you figure it out, please let me know. Thanks

Fuz Stick

A fuzz stick is really ard to light with a spark, its normally used with a match, or to get a banked fire restarted. it takes a very sharp knife and a light touch getting the shavings as thin as possible. I personally think they take way to much time and don't even fool with them unless every thing else i find is wet. Then whittle into the larger sticks to get at the dry stuff.

I think I am going to say this one more time just to be sure. If you go to the ETS front page, you will find a plethora of basic how to information for a whole host of different situations, including aviation category. Folks like Doug tend to post fairly thoroughly and in enough volume that it is not too difficult to find the how-to information of basic survival skills and techniques. Likewise, you can find several good publications elsewhere covering the subject in even greater depth and detail.

What is often lacking in these publications (Doug's being more the exception to the rule) is review and notification of new and improved gadgets that might make the tasks associated with survival easier and/or more effective. While admittedly there is still the issue of technique and application to be discussed, what seems to be far and away the more important concern is the knowledge of such devices actually being available, and what their new capabilities may be.

Basic survival skills and techniques do not expand and evolve nearly as quickly as do the tools available, so one would naturally expect to see a lot more material being posted in forums such as this relating to the arrival of new gadgetry or material, rather than significant offshoots of basic techniques.

In focusing specifically on how to use the new items, there is a definite distinction between simple manipulation and application. For instance, I do not necessarily need to know how to operate a blast match in order to start a fire, but I certainly need to know how to build a fire in order to make a blast match work properly as intended.

It seems that this forum fills the more immediate need of product identification and situational awareness than actual instruction. I prefer to leave instruction to the professionals, and keep casual conversation on more immediate and perhaps superficial discoveries. That doesn't exclude basic instruction altogether, but such anecdotal discussion does seem to be more interesting in this form of medium.

Maybe this time I did a better job explaining why???

OK I'll try one more time, I was pointing out that people are asking questions about what they can buy when a simpler answer would be to revert to basic techniques. And from the tone of most of the answers I have received it sounds like most people don't want to be reminded of that. AGAIN all the toys in the world won't help if you don't know how to play without them properly.

Very well said benjammin.......
Basic survival skills do not take a lifetime to learn, however the skill and knowledge to successfully deploy them comes from time spent training in the field. As benjammin stated, This is were time spent sitting behind a monitor, asking questions about new gadgetry pays off. Can you start a fire with char cloth, flint and steel? Sure, but is task made easier by using a Blastmatch and Wetfire? Maybe. I know which one I would choose to carry.
My take is this. Learn the basics and become proficient with them, but by all means, take advantage of new technology that may make survival easier. That's why I visit this forum.

smitty

This is the way I do it, your technique may vary...

Knife control in short slow pushes rather than heavy long strokes is the key to making a fuzz stick.

I start at the end of the stick furthest away from myself. I hold the stick close to, but behind the blade with my left hand, hold the knife in my right hand and push the knife forward in a very deliberate and controlled manner with both thumbs. I start at a shallow angle and both push the knife in slightly deeper and twist the blade over to a more perpendicular angle to the stick to curl the wood chip outward. Once a cut is made, I turn the stick and do it again until I've made cuts around the diameter of the stick. Then I move the stick forward (away from myself) and start the next row. Make sure that the cuts aren't so deep that you cut the stick in half. Also make sure that your off hand is always behind and not in front of the blade.

Note: The above would be easy for me to show you, but when I write it out I have no idea if the concept is clear or not. I'm also sure that there is probably terminology out there for the type of cut I described that would perfectly explain what it is. However, I have no idea what that word could be. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

A good sharp knife with something better than the standard factory angle makes the job a lot easier as well.

As raydarkhorse mentioned, a fuzz stick is more of a kindling stage piece of wood rather than something you would want to use as tinder.

Okay, obviously this is not going to be a very effective discussion using a broad sense of the subject. So, I'd like to request that you, raydarkhorse, provide some examples to what you are talking about so that we have a better idea as to what you are bringing to our attention.

As far as I can tell, many explanations have already been given as to why there might be more discussion of equipment than knowledge, and there have also been several post pointing out that this site/forum provides a vast amount of knowledge as well as equipment.

You did a fine job the first time ben, but the second time is generally smoother.

I won’t mention their names but two members in this discussion have asked about a fuzz stick, a basic skill they knew about it but not it’s practical application or how to make it. I have seen pictures of a campsite where they had hung their food in a tree to avoid bears, that’s good basic knowledge but they hung it almost directly over their tent (and instead of pointing that out tactfully jokes were made about a potentially deadly situation). This is a good example of having the knowledge but not knowing how to use it practically. This is just two examples that came to mind I can find more if you want me to, but I’m to busy this morning. Also there are threads where people are complaining about the weight of their BOB (more equipment is not always better), if and when tshtf and its time to bug out you may have to carry it. If it weighs too much you either move slow or not at all. I never intended to give full-blown survival courses on line my point is that some people need to be reminded from time to time that they need to look to the basics for the answer instead of adding another pound or two to their pack. Also I wanted to say again I like my equipment but you also need to consider what happens if you loose that equipment or it doesn’t work as advertised.

I may be totally off base with the discussion raydarkhourse is attempting to encourage, my interpretation of his post is, perhaps illustrated as follows.

In the EMS field, it is often the case with newer providers to fixate on gear/equipment instead of the patient. Present in EMS, one can see the new EMT/Paramedic with a belt full of gear, which after a number of calls is pared down to what becomes truly essential. Why is this so, because as one becomes comfortable/experienced, one learns to rely more upon the basics and less so on the equipment. All ALS providers have been taught to read and interpret EKG/ECGs, which is critical. However, in all skill reviews/refreshers I have attended, it has been drilled into us that you treat the patient, not the rhythm – the basics.

This is even more apparent in technical rescue (at least to me), where there is great emphasis on gear dependency or the latest and greatest piece of gear. We have newer members with the newest, greatest piece of gear on the planet, but become flustered under the pressure of a working rescue and have trouble tying a simple knot or selecting appropriate anchor points. They are so turned on by the gear, they forget the basics or are unable to improvise if they lack a particular piece of gear. On a positive note, as with most things, training and experience overcome the overt dependency on things (gear) and knowledge (basics) becomes the driving force behind why things are done in a particular fashion.

On the other hand, as it has been pointed out, it is difficult at best to teach someone a technique/skill in a format such as our forums. In my humble opinion, that is why it is so important to at least try some of these skills for yourself. With that said, I like many, do not often have the time or opportunity to practice these skills. Therefore, I do rely in large part upon the many experiments/trials/experiences that various members perform. For that I thank every member who has posted their successes as well as their “failures”, for in reality they are not failures, but the time proven result of experimentation.

Just my 2 cents-
Pete

You are right on target; maybe I should have contacted you to write my initial post. thank you.

Yep, Pete's analogies do hit the nail. My only disparity is that I would prefer that people interested in learning survival techniques do the work and research it properly. I reckon for most of us, when a person asks a question, the appropriate answer seems to be the one that most directly addresses the issue. As you suggest, the responsibility of the content of the interrogative and therefore the response rests mostly on the individual in the conversation asking the question. It may be a bit presumptuous and challenging for the person addressing the question to attempt to qualify the capabilities of the questioner in order to set the context of the response or otherwise determine if the person asking the question is even qualified to ask it. That would tend to put the questioner on the defensive, at least it would me. I rather prefer to answer questions as directly as possible, though at times this is more challenging. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This forum is a good place to answer specific questions, or to get help with specific issues, but really I think it is far better and more desirable for a curious individual to go to the source, ala Doug's front page of the ETS website, and get the in-depth information and detail they really need on the subject. That way they are more likely to get all the facts and information they may need, and there's a good chance they will dig deeper and discover even more useful information that they hadn't considered, and which the forum answers may not address. At least then, once they've done their work, coming to the Forum to ask questions won't end up being a continuous iteration of people asking over and over for the same info, which happens from time to time. Once researched, then more pointed questions can be asked in a better context from a more common reference.

I would rather encourage people to make use of all the tools available to them to learn survival skills, and not just take the shortcuts and limit their exposure by asking specific questions and assuming that's all there is to the subject.

Still, as you suggest it is awfully darned handy to have the forum up where someone who is pushed for time or may be confused and needing a little direction can come and ask even the simplest, most basic questions and expect to get the help they are looking for, or at least a good start. Perhaps it is this versatility you are looking to capitalize on more often? I can definitely get behind that effort as well. I was simply trying to answer your question as to why it has been the way it has been. That's not to say the emphasis has to remain the same, so gear oriented. It's just a matter of fact that gear seems to be the issue most people want to talk about here. I don't know as anyone's ever been ignored or turned away for wanting to talk technique, just that it doesn't come up as often for the reasons I cited previously, not that it couldn't in the future. I did not intend my explanation be considered a defense of why it is the way it is. Just more an observation and a conclusion. That's all.

If more folks want to talk about technique, then so much the better as far as I am concerned. I may just learn something myself, as I am prone to do now and then. I would like to see more traffic on the Forum. It makes for good reading when I am bored and want to find something worth doing.

It would be a lot of help if I could post pics directly, but forum mechanics are another issue altogether, and so far I've been able to get by without them. I am happy just to have a place to discuss points of interest.

Hopefully that puts us on the same page. My apologies if it seems I put you on the defensive. That wasn't the intent.

Cheers mate.

Interesting statement. Taken at face value it suggests a person wouldn't be capable of using a flashlight to find their way out of a subway tunnel during a power outage unless they've first been able to make fire by friction.
<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-Blast the Sleepless

Naw that’s like apples and oranges. A better analogy would be using a knife to whittle a toothpick out of a stick versus carving a swan out of a stick. They each take different basic skills but with the same knife you can do both. If all you can do is make the toothpick buying another knife won’t help in making the swan. You can use just about any equipment to a point but the more you know the better you can maximize your equipment.

Ah, much better analogy.

One thing about this site, it isn't just wilderness survival/bugging out to the boonies. There's a lot of people who come here to learn how to calculate what size generator they would need after a hurricane, how to make an emergency shelter if trapped in their office building, what information should they have copies of in a safe-deposit box in case of a house fire, and other equally valid, gear-based quests for knowledge. Over time we actually cover everything from animal attacks to Zulu hide-tanning techniques. Stick around for a few years and you'll see a lot of your statements were just based on too small of a sample size.

I am looking forward to your future "basic skills" posts.

-Blast

One of the reasons I joined this forum was the varied topics. But if you know some Zulu tanning techniques I would love to know them.

Sorry if I sounded bent out of shape. I agree they should go to a more in-depth place to read and learn the techniques. I never wanted to try to teach them just remind them from time to time that basic techniques might suit a situation better than another piece of equipment, and possibly point them in the right direction.

Yep, fair enough.

Now about them Zulu hide tanning techniques... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Do you mean techniques for tanning a Zulu's hide - or techniques that Zulus use for tanning other hides?

Kidding aside - I've always counseled those that I train to buy tools that are basic, proven and cheap. Then learn how to use them correctly for the task you are approaching. When you've mastered that, then, and only then, look for better tools. That has been the Master/Apprentice approach for centuries. Why? Because anything else is probably a waste of someone's time and money. But, then again, wasting time and money became the hallmark of the last half of the 20th century - and continues. There are always those who think tools can substitute for skills - and they do manage to make a living - but in the wilds (or some civilized place that has gone wild) believing that can get you dead! I don't think most people on this Forum believe any of that. But our friend who started this thread has a valid point. I would say it this way - any experienced person can make the critical mistake of discussing the advanced/fine points of tools, etc. with/in the presence of an inexperienced person and inadvertently communicate the impression that the tools are the thing. I think we should always take time to remind that fundamental skills come first and can be achieved, at a credible level, with very modest tools. Once those skills are obtained - better tools can be a real joy. Without the skills they're just more expensive tools.

Someone mentioned a subway tunnel and a flashlight. Fundamental skills: remember to rotate batteries, carry spares and a spare bulb. Test flashlight periodically. When those skills are ignored - possible result: flashlight ain't worth sh*t in the subway! (no matter how much it cost!) So, there are skills to be learned with the simplest of tools and dumbest of situations. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Okay, now that I am mostly done with my work for the SHOT Show Review I can take a few moments to clarify my earlier post and make a few additional points.

First, you can never have enough knowledge. I consider myself pretty well versed in survival skills, field craft and equipping myself to survive so to speak, I have spent a few unintended nights in the outdoors and thousands of intended nights. I still learn new ideas, techniques and skills on a regular basis. Heck, I was a dyed-in-the-wool Doan Magnesium Fire-starter user until last winter when Doug demonstrated the Spark-Lite for me… now that is all I carry (besides matches and lighter). Survival skills are like everything, learning should never stops. The learning should happen BEFORE the emergency not during. Now, Equipped.org is an exceptional resource as far as internet resources go. The problem is it is an INTERNET resource, you can’t learn survival skills from reading you learn them from doing! I would even go as far as suggesting that you really need a teacher for many skills not just instructions.
What Equipped to Survive is, what I have heard Doug refer to it as, is a type of Consumer Reports for survival equipment. The forum here is an extension to that, real people of various skill levels asking and answering questions, mostly on equipment, but anything pertinent is fair game.

I don’t think I would be wrong to also believe that most (not all) people who are purchasing equipment for survival are much more mentally prepared to survive then those who aren’t. Those who have found this site are more than likely even better prepared!

One final thought and this was my point of my first post (although not clear) Equipping yourself to survive involves much more than equipment… The paraphrased Louis Pasteur quote at the top of Equipped.org’s main page says it all!