Rudolph as a Survivor.

Has there been Posts / Discussion here about Eric Rudolph, -as regards his Survival Experiences and Aspects?

I find myself to be well interested in such. (Just read an interesting, in depth, article on such recently in USA Today).

Briefly and Basically, -I remember the case from pretty much from it's beginning. His bombings and such were of course Improper and Wrong, He made some stupid initial mistakes and boo boos, -despite otherwise good planning. And as a result, -they were hot on his trail, -all the way to his abandoning of his truck in the North Carolina mountains, -and perhaps somewhat beyond.They were Hounding and Hunting him pretty good, for awhile!

Further, being personally of a Pro Life view myself, -I got an uncomfortable feeling that this figured into the "Hot Houndance", as well. Though I Disapprove of his killing and all, -to any such end. If indeed he even was genuinely so motivated.

In any event, -he was able to soon get off, into his well familiar North Carolina mountains. And did a pretty dang good job Surviving and Evading therein! For a good long time. (5 and a half years).

Though having previously Camped and Hiked in these mountains, -and perhaps knowing a lot of, if not everything, -about Standard and Classic Wilderness Survival, I think he's earned a pretty High Grade and Score there! All Told, -I think he places so! -Survivalwise speaking, once again.

Not the least being his Great Improvisations, -to make up for a lot of what he lacked, or was Rusty on.

While Disapproving of the Wrongs he actually did, -Please Don't mistakenly find an "Admiration" in me for him there!,-I nevertheless find myself considerably Liking and Admiring this guy, -along with his Experience. This largely entails, but is not solely limited to, -the Survival Aspects involved.

Kazinsky too, -the Unibomber, -similar Disapprovals, and less "Admiration", -but it's got to be said that he built one heck of a Perfectly Concealed Shelter!

We can learn some Good Survival Tips and Pointers from these guys, -while yet Disapproving of the actually Wrong and Objectionable things as they did.

How do some of you View and Rate these guys, -or others like them, -as regards at least their Survival Experiences and Aspects? [color:"black"] [/color] [email]ScottRezaLogan[/email]

Scott, The 'social bandit' has always appealed to a part of society that feels some grievance against the government or other social powers. It goes back to Gilgamesh and the Wildman, Robin Hood and to another contemporary 'hero' Claude Dallas. Claude was a wannabe trash trapper- ersatz cowboy who angered ethical trappers and eventually murdered two Fish and Game officers effecting his arrest for poaching. Our 'mountain man' or 'last buccaroo' hid out with the active help of some community members with a like disdain for authority. Rudolf as well enjoyed logistical support from his peers. Claude got recaptured in a convenience quickiemarket in- Southern California and old Rudie was what, dumpster diving? There are folksongs playing the bars in the Owyhee Range romanticising Claude and no doubt some sister with her hands upraised to the heavens is suppressing lustfull thoughts of bearing Rudolph's 12 children while the guitar player sings his praise. I dismiss them both as a Christian, as a sometime cowboy and most firmly as a advocate of being prepared in urban and wilderness emergencies. There are countless examples of people who have survived greater odds, the jewish resistance fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto, Shackelton's epic voyage, The fellow pilot Saint-Exupery wrote ever so briefly about climbing out of the Pyrenee Mountains after a crash and countless others. Rudolph and Claude deserve the further punishment of being ignored and rejected by the society they treated with the same disdain.

And here I thought he meant "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

SO DID I !

Sue

Chris: Well said. BTW, which Saint Exupery text is that in? I don't recall it.

Wind,Sand and Stars

I met Gene Autrey a few times and he mentioned a very serious inquiry about it being a secret PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. codesong from some congressman. He had good company later with Puff,the Magic Dragon. Louie Louie and Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"How do some of you View and Rate these guys, -or others like them, -as regards at least their Survival Experiences and Aspects?"

I think there is an enormous difference between a person who successfully survives a bad wilderness experience and one who manages to avoid dying in the wilderness in spite of circumstances they themselves deliberately created. I have a great deal of admiration for the former and contempt for the latter--and, in the case of Rudolph, Dallas, and Kaczinsky, a large measure of loathing as well.

Regards, Vince

Remember that he had a large number of people who agreed with his position and were willing to support his efforts to evade capture. I recall reading an article soon after the capture in which some survival guru (I think it was Tom Brown) visited the camp and deduced that Rudolph had not spent as much time there as he claimed. The deduction was based upon such things as the depth of coals in the firepit, amount/age of debris in the garbage pit, and wear patterns on vegetation / paths.

This leads one to wonder just how much time Rudolph spent in the woods at all, as opposed to bunking with one of his supporters. Since this could lead to an obstruction charge against anyone who harboured him, it's not likely Rudolph will tell because - whether you agree with him or not - he sure seems to live by his own moral code.

Post deleted by Chris Kavanaugh

I'm with Fitz.

"Improper and Wrong" hardly covers it. <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I am so disgusted I will say no more about this post, poster or Rudolph for fear of having my behind booted off the board, where a lot of seemingly sane, decent and caring people do hang out and whose electronic company I do enjoy.

This board is decent. We also have forum guidelines. If someone posts a patently offensive remark I delete it. If they pursue same I delete them. If a member finds offense they can PM me or the poster. None of us are immune from making ill thought out, or more usually the case, ill written posts.The internet is hardly a fluid medium of exchange in spite of high speed dial up. Sometimes you have to get to know a person, just like reading a horse's idiosyncrosies or a girlfriend confronting childhood demons. If you just get angry you miss the fun both offer. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Look at these three quotes from Scotts original post.





Why are we being so hard on Scott? I thought he made it clear that did not approve of these peoples' actions. If I understand correctly Scott wants us to be intellectually mature enough to look as this strictly from the prospective of EE and longterm wilderness survival. Why is that so hard to do? Maybe there are better examples of long term EE and/or survival situations. These were however highly pubicized and we are all familiar with them to some degree so why is it such a bad topic for discussion other than the fact that we don't seem to be intellectually mature enough to separate the survival from the actions that made it necessary.

Just a thought... maybe I am misreading things... anything is possible.

Since many of us seem to need a more socially/politically correct example of long term survival might I suggest this excellent book.



If you order it from Doug's Book List then a portion of the proceeds go to ETS which is even better. The author of this book spent many years living very primitively in the wilderness and went on to teach what he knew to many others including people that many of us are familiar with such as Cody Lundin. It's a great book and very fun and easy read and best of all its garunteed to not offend even the most easily offened.

As far as EE goes... well you will never find a real life story off EE that can be discussed without offense to someone as long as people are unable to differentiate be the cause and the effect, or more specifically are unable to discuss the effect without ranting about the cause. That's sort of the very nature of EE isn't it? I mean if youre escaping and evading then there must be someone that doesn't agree with you... right?

Brian is correct in distilling Scott's post. Brandtb responded with a reference to Rudolph's camp showing very little occupancy. So have we learned anything? Some people or 'causes' push those big, red buttons Radio Shack should be marketing. It's a nasty taste of the notoriety these criminals live for.So, lets hope their meatloaf continues to have to much salt and move on.

I think both Scott and Brian are both trying to show that it is possible to separate the action from the actor, and to learn something even if the actor is one whom you find to be morally wrong. In Germany in WW2, POWs and concentration camp prisoners were subjected to ghastly medical experiments such as being immersed in ice water. If this experiment led to a better way to treat hypothermia, would you hesitate to use it because of the way it was discovered?

"Fas est et ab hoste doceri" - It is right to learn even from an enemy.

I'm really sorry Bradtb, but my sorry jewish ass will just have to freeze. I read german. I've read the texts. No thanks.

Chris, I've read enough of your posts to know you're a good guy and pretty fair when it comes to things like this. So, if you saw fit to delete my post, so be it. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I just really have no idea what you found offensive about what I said.

Now, here's a quote from the original message:



If you don't find that offensive, I guess our heads are screwed on differently. I've never found anything to like or admire about a mass murderer... your milage may vary...

I'll agree with your "nothing to see here, move along folks" assessment.

But so many people associate "survival" with wacko conspiracy theorizing militia-loving nuts that I think it's important we vocally condemn criminals like Rudolph rather than look for reasons to admire them.

My $.02 and I'm done with this thread.

Why so hard?

"-I nevertheless find myself considerably Liking and Admiring this guy, -along with his Experience. This largely entails, but is not solely limited to, -the Survival Aspects involved."

Well, gee, i dunno, maybe because the man he finds himself considerably liking and admiring happened to have killed and maimed innocents? And, if I remember his court appearances correctly, said he was sorry ... he only meant to target law enforcement, not bystanders.

Good enough for me.

Re intellectually mature enough to separate the deed and the doer, I don't buy it.

Sometimes evil, pure and simple, walks on two feet and needs to be recognized and labeled as such, and I believe the object of admiration in this case to be such a man.

In my career, I've met one serial killer and listened to another guy who, by his own admission, stuck up crack dealers for a living. (He was being tried on murder charges at the time). There was not a glint of humanity in either. They were, in short, the most dangerous of animals.

One raped and killed hookers and the other held up crackheads and dealers, so I suppose one could argue there is something to be examined, analyzed and even admired in their actions and their planning ... but not by me.

I'd argue that "intellectual maturity" surpasses chat-board analysis and one upsmanship ... perhaps sometimes it involves simply recognizing that you are in the presence of something quite bad and turning to face it for what it is.

But I could be wrong.

I'm not sure there is a lot to learn from Rudolph. Admittedly E&E doesn't interest me much but a cursory examination of Rudolph's "survival" methods shows me that:

There are half-smoked cigarette butts and food to be scrounged out of dumpsters.
You can steal vegetables out of gardens and grain out of silos if nobody is watching.
Move at night and you lessen the chance that somebody can see you.
You can greatly increase your chances of avoiding capture if you are willing to live like a rodent.

Big deal. Any transient can tell you that. Even I could probably figure those things out without much effort. Throw in his repugnant philosophy and criminal actions and IMO he's just not worth studying.

Regards, Vince

I understand what you mean.

The toughest time I have ever done in my 20 years of the practice of law was 8 days spent in the interview room of the women's prison here in Texas while opposing counsel deposed my ostensible client.

I was shanghai'd to sit the deposition of a young woman -- no secret, her name is Magy Ward -- who shot her mother in the back of the sink while she was standing there washing dishes.

The intellectual exercize of seperating the deed from the doer gets to be pretty tough when she is 85#, 17 years old, and quite nice when she isn't pissed off at you wiith a gun in her hand.

Magy was systematically malpracticed upon by a 'psychologist' for an extended period of time. The persons of whom our poster professes admiration were very deliberative and, to use a very outmoded term, quite evil.

I think that what is offensive to those of us who have responded in opposition to any sort of praise for the Rudolphs of the world is the perception of evil. I have sat in the presence of evil, and I cannot condone its praise, mixed with admiration or not.

The extent to which I may somewhat like or admire this guy, -as a Person / ality, - and of his overall Wilderness Experiences, -and of what I've mentioned that I am not limiting those to, -all DO NOT include nor entail, his killings, maimings, bombings, or other wrongs.

I think I like him somewhat as a *Personality and Person*.

That's what I Mean and Meant, -when I said, (paraphrasing now), -of such like and "admiration" as being beyond just his Survival Aspects alone. (Though such aspects too do count for a lot of it in me).

I've gotten a little worried about such possible Reactions, Mis / Understandings, and Mis / Interpretations, -a day or so after originally posting.

I've also been reading a relatively recent book on the topic, -"Hunting Eric Rudolph", -in for one thing, -a further effort to better make up my mind, -on just where he comes down with me.

To the extent that he either is, or may be, -domestically terroristic, anti social, or whatnot, -I'm as Turned Off to him!, -as any of you!

*Again, -I Utterly Oppose and Deplore!, -Any and All such Wrongs as he's all round Done!*

Engaging in Guerilla War against say nazi oppression, -is one thing. But I DON'T beleive that bombing clinics and other locations, -in today's all round Society, -is a proper, -or in any way permittable, -way to further one's views on the matter.

I'm also Moved by the Experience of Miss Lyons, (as well as the Sandersons and Others), -injured in one of his bombings. Though personally differing with what she did at such place. My Regards and Sympathies DO go out to her and them. [color:"black"] [/color] [email]MGF[/email]

Scott, There are good people in every walk of life, political philosophy and religon. I met the great Marlene Dietrich when my grandfather made a pair of dancing shoes for her. My father made the mistake of mentioning ( boasting) meeting Einstein and Werner Von Braun from his days on the Manhatten project and the early rocket program. Dietrich's withering comment about "that nazi and his toys" was followed by a history lesson to me about my german ancestor Blucher and how his late arrival at Waterloo stopped Napoleon. I grew up painting 54mm Napoleonic War Prussian cavalrymen and I.R.A. volunteers while my friends got high gluing Stukas together. You don't need Rudolphs for nothin' <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

AFAIK, GROUCHY was late and thus BLUCHER earkier arrival caused Napoleon's defeat.

Yes, but the battle was still a close affair until Blucher came. My family geneologist thinks there was another ancestor in Queen Sophia's Guards with the elaborate leopard skin helmets. Typical of my family, fighting with each other even then.

I seem to remember it's Victor Hugo who wrote about Napoleon at Waterloo ... " he was waiting for Grouchy and Blucher came ..."
"Waterloo, morne et triste plaine..."

IIRC, that guy GROUCHY arrived too late, because he took his time for diner or something like that.... but I might be wrong on that one...

If I remember my "Young Frankenstein" correctly, Blucher is German for glue.
Correct? No offense intended.
<img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Incorrect.

Must be a different spelling.
Scared the heck out of the horses when they heard the name "Frau Blucher."
May have been Cloris Leachman's accent.

I believe it was Marty Feldman who kept hollering "Frau Blucher" and the horses reared and whinnied(?). <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Actually it was Cloris Leachman that played the part of Frau Blucher in the movie, one of the most hilarious I have ever seen.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0072431/

It is a "must see" movie. Feldman died a few years ago. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Indeed, -Such human experimentation and the like should Never be done. But IF such is Wrongly done anywhere, -and there just happens to be some Good, Useful, Helpful Information or other Benefit which comes out of it, -then for God's Sake, -Make Use of it!

Some of the nazi era Mengele type Human Experiments, -were applied to the benefit of the Luftwaffe. Again, -They should Never have been done. But once Knowledge in any way ends up entering the "Knowledge Stream", -are we to then just turn a Blind Eye and Deaf Ear to such?!, -as though it were Not Ever even there?!, -solely over the Wrong Manner of which it was acquired?!

This can be something of a Tuff Ethical Dilemma, -but in this case, -once something Beneficial IS known, -My view is that it No Longer should be Ignored. Notwithstanding the Wrong Ways in which it was acquired, -and that such Means to such Knowledge, -should in all Cases and Times, -NEVER be done!

I think the current Stem Cell Debate runs along similar lines.

Again, to analogize with WW 2, -We were there to Fight the German nazis, Japanese, and Italian and other Fascists, -and all such Wrong and Objectionable things as they Stood For.

But that Opposition does NOT extend, -to refusing to pick up a German Mauser or Ammo Belt, -that you may have occassion to do there on the Battlefield. Just because it is of your Yes Wrong, Enemy's Use or Manufacture!

To Sum Up, -DON'T Seek to acquire Knowledge or any other Gain, -in any Wrong, Immoral, or such of a Way! But if someone somewhere yet does, -Do not say that a Found Out, Follow Up Fact from such, -does not exist!

If someone Wrongly brings an Animal into your Living Room, -in your Opposition and Objection to such!, -you nevertheless Don't go round saying it isn't even there! Facts too, are "Stubborn Things", -and if it's a Fact or Reality, -I Beleive it to be as Such, -WHILE *Entirely Opposing* Any and All Wrong ways of which such may have been gotten! [color:"black"] [/color] [color:"black"] [/color] [email]brandtb[/email]

Saadam too, Hid out and "Survived" for a while, before his Capture, -as we'd remember. I personally have NO levels of Like or Admiration for him! And likewise view him as More or Less, -or even Entirely, -Evil.

With mao, stalin, hitler, pol pot, saadam's sons, and many others, -I too feel No personal Sympathy, Like, nor Admiration for! However they may Grade, -A Plus to E Minus, -in a Pure Out Survival Situation.

Rudolph in my overall View and Judgement, -is a kind of "Tweener" Person, -who may or may not be any bit Evil. Though certainly he did some Very Wrong, Objectionable, and Evil things nevertheless.

Also, in his View and Mind however, -he was Addressing and Responding to what he felt were various Evil Actions of Others. Or so he anyway says. It still does NOT Excuse or Justify it. Plenty more people than just Rudolph, -think that Miss Lyons for example, was *also* doing some Evil. (Even if Unknowingly and Non-Intentionally) (Yet the Vast Majority of them, -don't do things like Rudolph type bombings.). So if we're going to be Citeing and Opposing Evil.....!, -Many would Reply that we shouldn't be so Double Standarded about it!

Again, -I have absolutely NO Like, Admiration, or Sympathy, -for saadam back there in his Survival Situation! (And like Rudolph, -"He did it to Himself!"). And though he may not have been an E Student at Survival, -he probably didn't Rate or Rank the Survival Honor Roll either. But *IF* he hypothetically had, -I could still learn Pure Survival Lessons from the likes of even him. I could still Separate Pure Out Survival Matters, -from the Evil Objectionability and all, -of such a particular Survivor. So even if Rudolph is as much as Pure Out Evil, -and again my personal feeling is that he Doesn't go that far, -His Survival Experience can still be Separated from his Wrong Deeds, -and Survival Lessons can still be Learned! (Even if he too, -Ranked somewhere between the Bottom of the Barrel / Spider Hole, -and a Survival Honor Roll ! ). [color:"black"] [/color] [color:"black"] [/color] [email]norad45[/email]

If so, -Rudolph among his North Carolina Mountain supporters, -Osama among his Pashto / Pakistani / Afghan Taliban types, -in *their* Great Mountainous Terrain and Turf. Quite a Similarity!, -if So and True. Why wouldn't such a One's, -go to where their Supporters are!? [color:"black"] [/color] [email]brandtb[/email]

I'm locking this thread up with rudy.