Long term survival (6 mo. - 1 yr) food & water

I am considering a scenario where the food supply is cut off for 6 months to a year due to some catastrophe. Specificallly the realignment of the earth on its axis. I know some people (or maybe many) may think this to be a ridiculous thing to anticipate. But I have my reasons.

I am looking at storing a food supply for 6 months to a year. I see there are some pre-made food supplies available like at yellowstonetrading.com but they can get quite pricey $1000+. I am also considering buying food in bulk like white rice. I am unsure how long those foods would last and how to store them etc. Feels like there is a whole expertise here.

Anyone here have a large stored supply of food? Any advice for someone trying to create one? (Stay away from pre-made ones etc.)

Also keeping a supply of water would seem a very good idea. I know it would be easy to lose electricity. I am wondering if running water is just as vulnerable? Can you just fill containers with tap water and expect it to stay good indefinately?

I will appreciate any responses.

MindsEye

Oh boy. This kind of scenario is what's called on this board TEOTWAWKI (The End Of The World As We Know It) and it's supposedly off topic. However, yes, dry grains in sealed containers will keep pretty well, there are places that sell what you want, and water needs to be rotated every 6 months or preserved with chlorine, and/or purified at the time of use. Yes, if the earth's rotation stops, your running water will probably also stop. There will probably be some pretty amazing climate changes too. And one side of the earth will be in perpetual daylight whlie the other side will be perpetually dark. If you think you may end up on the dark side, you'll want lighting equipment too.

Do you mean the axis of rotation or the magnetic pole?

The axis of rotation changing suddenly is rather unlikely, since it violates the law of physics- specifically conservation of angular momentum. Don't worry about it.

The magnetic pole can certainly change, and scientists aren't exactly sure how quickly it happens. I think there was a Scientific American article recently that went over it, but I don't remember the timeframe they were talking about. I think the isogonic lines start going all higgledy piggledy first, so we'll have plenty of warning that it's going to happen.

You might want to check some websites from the Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormon).

About 15 years ago, one of my friends father was an elder in the LDS church and they had a years supply of food stored. I don't remember all the details on the why's and how's.

Maybe this can get you started. Google search - Mormon food storage

--Chris

Saunterer is absolutely correct. If you have any friends who are Mormons, they will have alot of experience in this area from alot of folks doing it for quite awhile now. That's your best bet.

Greg
(not a Mormon, but I have known a few)

Try beprepared.com if I got it right Emergency Essentials
in Orem they have info on this area

Lee

Agreed. But I can think of a few situations where "a years supply of food" would still be a good thing to have.

First, every additional person you add shortens that year. So 1 year for one is (roughly) 6 months for 2. Add a few neighbors and your inlaws who were visiting when the Event occured, and now it's suddenly not so excessive.

Second, it doesn't take total collapse to make that year's supply pay off. If our food or water supplies are attacked, I'd fall back to my stored supplies and wait the Bad Guys out. A "Washington Sniper" scenario, but with food instead of bullets. Remember the Tylenol poisonings? You don't have to render all food and water unfit for consumption... you just have make people scared to eat and drink it.

Of course, I don't have anywhere near that much, and probably won't. But after thinking about it for a few minutes, I don't think it's all that unreasonable.

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Yes, if the earth's rotation stops, your running water will probably also stop.
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If the earth's rotation stops I believe we lose gravity, in which case that food store won't help much. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Actually, gravity is determined by the mass of the Earth, not its rotation. So we're safe there. But there would indeed be some pretty dramatic climate changes! But short of some collision with a huge interplanetary body, the earth's rotation is going to continue uninterrupted for quite a long time. Don't worry about it.
On the other hand, a shift from a north magnetic pole to a south magnetic pole is considered likely to occur sometime in the next 10,000 years. Important to plan for long-term as a species but not worth worrying about for us as individuals.
Regards, Vince

I read somewhere( an I will be damned if I can remember where) that the major ice ages correspond with the magnetic shift. I do believe that the last ice age was... 15,000 years ago? Does that mean we are over due for a shift?

Stored foods are good, as are seed goods. Lay in some non-hybrid grains, veggies and such and rotate them out every year. Basicly, get seeds for this year, use half of them, collect seeds from what you grow and lay it in for next year. Plant half of that next year, possibly with some new seed stock mixed in, and repeat. With good storage, things like alfalfa, mung beans and other 'sprouters' can last for 10 years. Grains are about 7 years. Fruit seeds, like apples and such are variable, and remember that you can grow a tree from a seed, but with todays graftings, it willnot be the same.

There are some fish that can be 'stored' in egg form for up to 3 years in a dehydtated form. Based on Desert dwellers, these are hybrids that could get you protien in a hurry(as far as animal growth goes). Only tackle that one if you are ready to invest in the tanks or pond.

Water is always a problem. If you are already in an arid area, store lots. If you can, build a cistern that can catch rain water and remember to clean/treat/boil anything you are unsure of.

My 2cents, so far.

Rena

I'm trying to plan for a 6 month to a year supply cutoff but due to job layoff not a major earth change as I work in IT so a job layoff is a realistic possibility. I've started by trying to make sure I have anything non-perishable items such as paper plates and silverware so I could cut down on water used for washing dishes. Buying food in bulk like rice will not help for 6 months because after eating it every day for a month you will be sick of it <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Start by printing an empty calendar and put it somewhere in your kitchen, then as you eat each meal, write it down. This helps in two ways, one you can look back and make sure you didn't eat the same meal just 5 days ago, .i.e. start to give variety in meals so you don't get tired of something. With just my wife and I in the house it gets difficult just to think of enough meals to go a couple weeks without repeating or getting tired of something. Take the filled up calendar and sit down and look at the meals and see what can keep and for how long. Estimate how much of each thing you need then, for example if you eat green beans average of three times a month then you know you probably need 18-20 cans of green beans to make it those 6 months. There will be meals on that calendar that consist of items that won't last 6 months so you know if something were to happen you then know what to finish up first and what can be left for later and what will have to be eliminated. If you get to the point where you can actually keep a few months worth of food in stock during normal times then you can actually think about having a supply for a scenario.
The hard part is 6 months of water, 1 gallon per person per day is 182 gallons of water per person for 6 months. Better start buying those quart bottles of water now <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think the saying goes... Store what you Eat and Eat what you Store. Buying rice, beans, pasta in bulk can save you as these will store long term. Places like Emergency Essentials are great for information and their sales can be worth while.
If you have Grocery Outlet near you, that's the place to shop.

I'm not experienced enough to actually help, but I can offer moral support. I don't think you are a nut for wanting to stash some food. Or maybe your are. At least you aren't a dangerous nut for wanting to stash food. <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the fantastic replies. In case you are interested here is where I got the idea of the pole shift happening:

I read a book called A New Beginning I: Handbook for Joyous Survival. The book is a written by a woman who is channelling. It is not a book about the survival like this website but they have one chapter on the realignment of the earth chapter 11. It says that the earth slowly gets out of alignment over time. And about every 26,000 years it realigns itself on its axis (of rotation).

Here is an excerpt from the chapter that you may appreciate:

"You may feel that you should make preparations for those you know who will not make preparation for themselves, and while it is a generous intention and satisfying in many ways, it is not a practical plan. As you are storing enough for yourself and for your family for 365 days, it will not be a major expense, and will not require a large amount of storage space, and you will be extremely happy that you have made that preparation."
"However if 365 of your friends or neighbors who have not made preparation join you on the first day, you will all do well for that one day, but there will be much hardship as you are all met with short supply for the rest of the year."
p.79

On another note:
Anyone know how long MRE's will stay good?

MindsEye

Channelling? You mean like, flipping the remote quickly?

I built up a year's supply prior to Y2K (no excessive laughing please) by shopping the discount/sale sections at my local grocery stores. Also, buying specials... canned vegis- 4/1.00... buy the limit, mac-n-cheese- 2/1.00...buy the limit, etc. Basicly, I bought two or three times the food I needed for the week, and put most of it away. It takes a while to build your stock this way, but it doesn't take long, and you start feeling a bit of comfort when looking at your "stash". For those of you who chuckled at the Y2K refference, I've managed to pretty much keep the stock in tact by using up the old (date everything) and replacing it with new, and in the mean time, I'm eating at last year's prices, also, if something happens to my paycheck (how secure is YOUR job), I'm good to go as far as food's concerned for quite a while. Some may see it as paranoia, I call it common sense.
As far as the water issue goes, it will keep in sealed containers quite a while, but it's a good idea to rotate that stock as well. In the past, I've used two-liter, clear, pop bottles, stacked on their side, against one wall of the basement, but have since gone to an out-side cistern and filter system... no need to rotate.
Good luck with your cache, and might I suggest you check out "Backwoods Home" magazine, I think you'll find it an interesting/informative/enjoyable read (no affilliation, just a satisfied reader).

Troy

IIRC Gravity is the pull of one body on another, it isn't related to the spin of the body. We will have gravity if the earth stops spinning.

Also, we MAY have one side light and one side dark all the time, but in this case it would be a case of the earth still rotating, but the rotation would take 365 days.

If the earth completely stopped spinning, we would have day time become 6 months long, and night being the same length.

The OGRE

To be honest I cannot think of anything (currently known or even seriously speculated about by science) that could cause the Earths rotation to stop in a short period of time that would not wipe out life on Earth. The forces involved are just vast. No amount of preparation could possibly be of any use unless you have your own spaceship.

Having a years supply of food available is however a good idea for any number of other scenarios though

Woohoo! I'm glad I don't have to worry about floating out in to space! Would have been mighty uncomfortable! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

No, that would mean it is still spinning at one turn per year around its own axis.

>>The hard part is 6 months of water, 1 gallon per person per day is 182 gallons of water per person for 6 months. Better start buying those quart bottles of water now<<

I have close to 300 gallons stored in my basement- not that hard to do, but I wouldn't try it with quart bottles. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Most of it is in plastic 55-gallon drums, with a couple of "portable" (if you're the Incredible Hulk) 15-gallon drums, and a small collection of 5-gallon water cooler bottles that date from my apartment days (I've been trying to be prepared for some time now). That's not counting the 50 gallons of fresh water reserve in the water heater, of course.

For the record, I don't consider that anywhere near a 6-month supply of water (unless you're a Bedouin), and I would personally be very surprised if the earth suddenly shifts on it's axis. There certainly is the "precession of the equinoxes" thing, which is a 26,000 year cycle as mentioned (think of a wobbling top) but I've seen no evidence that it comes on suddenly.. as in, less than a few centuries.

Nothing's impossible, I guess, but there are other scenarios I would consider more likely. I think preparedness is in general a pretty good idea, but, IMHO, it's a mistake to obsess and prepare for any one specific threat. The idea, really, is that some of us hedge our bets a little against an unknown future- if the future were knowable, everyone would be prepared for it.

>>No, that would mean it is still spinning at one turn per year around its own axis.<<

Only relative to the sun. If it quit rotating relative, to, say, the rest of the galaxy, but continued to revolve around the sun, he's quite right.

I remember that now. It's amazing how a little bit of science can be distorted into something scary by the new-agers.

OTOH .... these extra-pounds I'm trying to loose would no longer matter ......
<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

These guys sell flexible water tanks in various sizes. The 110 gallon one is about right for storing under a bed.

http://www.aquaflex.net/

Of course if you live out in the boonies, your simplest approach is to just dig a pond out back.

Where did you get your 15 gallon ones? I want one or two for the truck, have kind of a mini rv going on with my old aluminum cap for camping out on the parents farm.

Pssst, listen buddy, I can get you a ride off this rock on the next pass of Hale-Bopp.

Just remember to bring your white sneakers.

<img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

http://www.millennium-ark.net/

An excellent site . Go to the Preparedness Section

'fraid I'll have to get back to you on that. It was 1998 or 1999, and I got them from the same supplier I bought the 55 gallon plastic drums from. They are drums, smaller of course, and with a handle on top, but the same bungs as the larger ones. I'm sure most of the suppliers have them, but I'll look for the info on the one I used.

BE AWARE, however, that there's a reason most suppliers don't carry "portable" 15-gallon containers. The weight of the water alone is 120 pounds, plus the weight of the container itself. You're not going far with that on foot...

Yes, you are right of course! Not sure what I was thinking. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Without any rotation we'd still have a one year long day.

Your right, I forgot about the weight. I'll look for some 5gallon ones.

Isn't storing a 6 months to 1 year supply of food considered hoarding and isn't it illegal in the US?

>>Isn't storing a 6 months to 1 year supply of food considered hoarding and isn't it illegal in the US?<<

Good grief, whatever gave you that idea?

I was so surprised at this question that I actually suspected you might be a troll, but I checked your past messages, and they seem thoughtful enough, so I have to assume you're sincere.

DESPITE what you may hear in the media, "hoarding" is taking more than your share/more than you need WHEN THERE'S A SHORTAGE. It has absolutely nothing to do with storing for bad times when there's not a shortage and anyone can procure as much as they like.

Ask yourself this simple question- if you do NOT store food or water (because you think it might be "hoarding"), how can that act possibly help anyone else?

If you DO store food and/or water, the worst that can happen, from the perspective of others, is that you are one less drain on resources ("common", or theirs) if a scarcity does occur in the future. To some degree, that's certainly to the benefit of others.

My personal opinion is that some degree of preparedness should be viewed as a civic duty- possibly on a par with voting. No penalties if you don't, but not much sympathy either. After all, people who do NOT prepare are implicity depending on others to rescue/take care of/feed them if things go wrong. Where's the virtue in that?

The word "hoarding" may well be used in a shortage in an attempt to justify outright theft of the property of others, but, as far as I know, there are no laws in the US preventing one from storing any amount of food and water. If there were, several religious groups (Latter-Day Saints and Seventh-Day Adventists come to mind) would have a real problem with that.

If it's illegal then this is the first I have heard of it. Are you a US citizen? Where did you get this information? I just ask because I can't imagine this being illegal in the US (cept in California...of course) although I have no evidence that it is or isn't. I have a 3 month supply of Mainstay rations in the closet. I find it to be humorously absurd for me to think that this could be illegal. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

3 months supply of mainstay? You're a braver man than I. I'm not sure if I'd rather have a three month supply of vintage Korean War K-rations or those.

The poster who first mentioned laws regarding hoarding is not a "troll". If you look up the implications of some of the FEMA executive orders that Clinton signed into law you'll see what he's talking about. It's also common for states, themselves, to have laws against hoarding.

Now, is some FEMA soldier going to come into my house and take my stores of beans and rice? ....from my cold dead hands. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Anything legal can be made illegal, overnight.

Sounds like another reason to not advertise if and how well you've prepared. This is true both before and after an Event... if your neighbors don't see you standing in the bread line occasionally, they'll start to wonder.

Not yet, at least not that I'm aware of. Anybody know any different, and don't mention it to the H.S. folks, they don't need any MORE screwed up ideas <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

The earth moves in a number of ways simultaneously.

The earth turns, of course, once per day. This rotation is actually slowing as the earth gradually becomes tidally locked with respect to the sun (much as the moon only shows one face to the Earth). This gradual process will take billions of years.

The earth also revolves around the sun (once per year) in a very slightly eliptical orbit. This rotation will also (eventually) slow and the earth will spiral into ever-closer orbits. Again, gradual, and would take billions of years or more. In fact, the sun will expand and engulf the earth five billion years from now, long before the earth has lost any noticable altitude.

Our magnetic poles do reverse from time to time. This appears to coincide with major climate changes on earth, lasting thousands of years. If this does happen, we'll have plenty of warning, and plenty of time to react.

Weird factoid: the earth is closer to the sun during what we in the northern hemisphere consider winter. It's the fact that the earth rotates slightly tilted that gives us seasons: during summer our hemisphere tilts towards the sun, getting longer days with more direct sunlight. Where'd the tilt come from? Not sure, probably an asteroid impact early in our history.

OK, here's where your 26,000 year cycle comes into play: the earth actually wobbles (like a spinning top) in a regular circular motion. it's very slight, and achingly slow, but someday we'll have a different northern star because the earth will be pointing in a slightly different direction. That's your cycle. The thing is, it's GRADUAL. It's already been going on for billions of years, and will continue to do so. It's going on right now. It's called "precession" or "precession of the equinnoxes". Absolutely no danger. It's only the accident of our north pole happening to point at a star that even made precession noticable to ancient astronomers.

If anything did suddenly make a noticable change to our axis of rotation, all the food on earth wouldn't save you-- the angular momentum of the Earth is gigantic. Any changes would likely kill most complex life on our surface and make the world permanently (ie for thousands of years) uninhabitable for any survivors.

One astronomical disaster that is worth looking at, in my opinion, is an intrasolar collison. An asteroid or comet would do unbelievable damage (depending on how big it is and how it impacts, could be a massive disaster, or the end of civilization, or the end of humanity altogether). One scenario, for example, triggers earthquakes / volcanic eruptions, drowns major oceanside population centers in unbelievable tsunamis, drenches the world in months of (initially salty) rain, starts a new Ice Age, disrupts the ionosphere (interfereing with radio) and otherwise ruins our day.

Frankly, tornados, hurricanes, train/plane/automobile crashes, heat wave-induced power interruptions, forest fires, terrorism and earthquakes are far more likely. I'd be fully prepared for these menaces before I lost sleep over anything more exotic.

Actually, the earth is moving away from the Sun, but really, really slowly.

(Yeah, it's a minor nit, but I noticed and it's late and I'm bored and...)

<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hmmm - Hoarding in Wartime I think was an illegal, if not morally condemned, activity in WWII.

I found this website about pharmecuticals and some mention of hoarding
http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/Rxemerg.htm
It mentions the hoarding of drugs which could be connected to illegal activities.

I have found lots of Depression articles of people hoarding gold, and then again in the 80's doing the same thing. No real mention of the legality of the hoarding, but several references to money laundering.

I did find a site called Findlaw.com and did a search
http://lawcrawler.findlaw.com/scripts/lc...ubmit=Search%21
interesting that Lawyers can be accused of Hoarding information.

The hoarding of supplies, whether food, drugs or other supplies does not seem, in my small search on the internet, be illegal by it's self, but in an indication or pointer to a real illegal activity, such as black market drug sales, money laundering and terrosrist activities.

Because of the Patriot Act, it is my opinon, that if a government offical believes you are hoarding supplies, you can be investigated for terrorist connections and activities.

puts a whole new spin on taking care of your family, doesn't it?

Rena

Thanx for your vote of confidence - I am not a troll, but I do have cynical tendencies. I certainly agree with your moral and practical assessment of hoarding, but still have some questions about legality. I only posted a short reply to this thread the first time because I didn't have time to dig up a reference where I heard about this (errr... I still haven't made the time...). But I do see that some of the other posters here have begun to look into it. As an outside observer, I am constantly surprised at the incredible (and increasing) restrictions that citizens of the "land of the free" will put up with (oops... I hope that's not trolling...).

<img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Okay ... whats a "troll" and/or "trolling"? I'm assuming we aren't talking about the ugly little guys living under the bridges. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

A forum "troll" is someone who is tossing out an outrageous opinion with the hope of igniting a controvertial or heated discussion. Sort of like "trolling" bait behind a boat in hopes of catching a fish. Quite often a troll doesn't even believe what they are stating, just enjoys the flame war that follows. The best way to respond is to not respond- "do not feed the trolls".

"Nuke the unborn gay whales for jesus"- now that's a troll.

oops, thanks. Good catch.

When I first read your post I assumed that you were referring to profiteering or price gouging. Hoarding food or fuel for your own use has never been illegal as far as I know. But if I try to sell my stash of gas at $10.00 per gallon after a hurricane I may well indeed land in jail, and deservedly so.

Regards, Vince

>> I am not a troll, but I do have cynical tendencies. <<

You and me both, friend.

>>As an outside observer, I am constantly surprised at the incredible (and increasing) restrictions that citizens of the "land of the free" will put up with <<

As an inside observer, I share your surprise. Repeatedly. Often. Continuously. It's very hard to believe that the same people who fought two world wars in the name of "freedom" are now pepared to surrender it, as a culture, to suppress some fanatics with box cutters.

As was pointed out, FEMA (and probably some other agencies) have pretty much carte blanche to suspend the constitution for the duration of whatever is officially deemed an emergency. How likely that is to happen, or to be abused, or what capabilities might be in place to enforce such, I'm not in a position to judge.

However, since my family was one of the victims of Andrew Jackson's famous regard for the constitution:

"(Chief Justice of the Supreme Court) John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it."

I do tend to be ever so slighltly cynical about the motivations of such moves. More generally, I suspect that the study of history makes one cynical. Perhaps that's why it's apparently no longer encouraged.

However, trying to discuss what might be "legal" after a power grab of that magnitude (theoretical or historical) is probably moot... what's legal will be whatever the people with the most guns say is legal.

Now, if we try to define that as TEOTWAWKI, then we also have to define exactly how that's different from now... <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I enjoy the conversation, but I suspect we're nearing the edge of what's considered acceptable for this forum, and I have no desire to add to the moderator's heartburn... I suggest we let it fade away quietly.

I have always thought of hoarding as something that is done when there is a definite emergency going on and rationing for equal distribution to all was threatened.

If I am stocking up now when there is no emergency or rationing of the items I am stocking up on, I am not hoarding.

In an emergency situation, governmental agencies can under laws already in place seize your stash for redistribution, but that does not imply you acted illeagally.

If you go to a central emergency shelter, items can be taken from you to seve the more needy. An example would be you bringing a cot and having it seized for use as a stretcher or operating table which is more important than having you sleeping on it. Likewise if you bring a cooler or any container with food or water to the shelter, they can redistribute it if they fear a shortage of what they already have will occur.

Best way seems to be, hole up with what you have somewhere that only you can access until your supplies deplete to the point where you need help. That way you aren't using the common assets of the shelter, and you aren't hiding your stuff to use later after taking advantage of the shelters offerings.

I know they do not allow pets in long term shelters, but I have been wondering about people who have gastric bypass surgery. Those people need more calories because they have removed food processing intestines and will use up more of a shelters resources. Personally, I am all for maintaining equal portion and calorie control for all in the shelter, and if the gastric bypass surgery people perish because of their operations ---------- sorry.

Bountyhunter

That is why it is best to keep a low profile and not advertise your frugal activities, not even to relatives or friends that do not live with you. You can always bring who you want under your wing when they need help, but do not let the world know.

Bountyhunter

Norad45:

I think it is if you offer gas for $10.00 a gallon, you are profiteering, but if you only have 2 gallons and someone offers you $10.00 for 1 gallon of gas without you asking or hinting about it, and you have 1 gallon left, I do not believe that would be profiteering.

Now, if you had a 100 gallons of gas-------------------------------!

Bountyhunter

(P.S. I can not "IRREFUTABLY" prove that, but it seems sensible.)

I agree. I doubt that even the most ardent jackboot wearin', Black helicopter flyin', civil rights grabbin', Patriot act enforcin' "GOVERNMENT SPINMEISTER" would be interested in a 2 gallon hoard. I was thinking more along the lines of the guy who has a 1000 gallon tank on his farm. I think that he would be prohibited from profiteering just as much as the owner of the local Kwiki-Mart.


Regards, Vince

During the winter 1999's tempest in France, there were a few hectic days, with no electric power for thousands of houses for some days.
I remember hearing on the news, people saying they had to buy candles, at a price multiplied by 10 by local shops. Never heard those shops were prosecuted for raising prices like that in those circumstances.
So I guess that's what you call free trade or is it liberalism .... <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It occurs to me that a good way to extend food & water supplies is through modified hibernation.

In large community shelters, you could enforce mandatory rest and sleep periods for those individuals not necessary for maintaining the shelter and you could rotate the personnel so that everyone works.

Those whose turn it is to sleep and remain inactive could be given less food and water because their bodies will expend less energy and those that are working could be fed according to anticipated caloric output. Fat people (I am one of them.) could be fed proportionately less as their bodies have reserves to use.

This would stretch the resources of the group in the shelter and allow the supplies on hand to last longer. This same tactic could be used in a smaller family shelter situation, but would be hard because of the emotions that would tend to interfere. An autocratic entity in a large common group shelter would be able to keep a detached position and therefore would probably be more efficient.

Bountyhunter

"GOVERNMENT SPINMEISTER'S" do not wear jack boots or fly black helicopters when they work their "VOODOO" scenerios. They do that hard stuff only after they have taken over. The other stuff about them is true.

Reminds me of the time the late John Denver contracted for a large gasoline storage tank during the days of the gas crunch. He was booed because he had the money to do what most of those condemning him would have done themselves in those circumstances.

Hipocrisy and subterfuge will live forever, with or without "jack boots".

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wishful thinking, I'm afraid.

Do you happen to remember the reaction ( both here and on another forum) to my suggestion (that bounced back and forth between forums for awhile) that it was inappropriate for a short-term survival kit to contain food items (teabags, bouillon cubes, candy & glorified candy), or items related to food (snares, fishhooks, fishing line, cooking stuff, fuel)?

The reaction ranged from dismissal from those who thought I was ignorant or daft, to outrage from some who apparently had their core beliefs challenged.

To Doug's credit, he appeared to be willing to give the concept consideration (I gather- we've never talked about it directly)... which is more than it generally got.

Logic appears to have nothing much to do with it- I'm afraid the fact seems to be that the vast majority of modern Americans have never gone a day without a meal in their lives, and some significant percentage have apparently never skipped a meal. When these folks get hungry they panic, and think they're dying, with all sorts of imagined symptoms and rationalizations to go along with the contention.

I'm afraid your idea would quickly turn any shelter in the US into Riot City.

My short-term survival kit has two items of food. The first is a couple powerbars- Hypothermia is a real danger in an unexpected survival situation, and a jolt of calories at the right time can go a long ways towards good to reversing a downward spiral. The other is a couple teabags and sugar packets. I get this idea from the SAS book and the british- when things are going down the tubes, the ritual of putting the kettle on can really help clear your head and get you to settle down and think. After all, thinking is the most important thing to do when the unexpected happens. Plus, tea makes it more palatable to injest some warm water, which can also help with hypothermia.

I agree completely (as do many others including the guys at Tacoma Mountain Rescue Unit) on the tea and my larger kits (the ones that actually include a metal container like a coffee can) now contain a couple bags of caffeine free/herbal tea for that very reason. I chose the caffeine free because I feel that stimulants are not wanted or needed in a survival situation... at least not for me. I haven't given much thought to the Power Bar concept, I guess since I live in a predominatly warm area. Although now with winter on the way, hypothermia prevention is a legitimate consideration even here.

I live in Minnesota. Hypothermia is a possibility in July. The tea I carry is caffeinated, because I'm addicted to caffeine- the last thing I need in a survival situation is a migraine.

Presumed Lost:

I understand your thinking, but you have to admit (The recent hurricanes being a prime example.) that people have and will come together in a genuine emergency.

Yes, some will panic and demand more and attempt to start a riot, but you throw them out with nothing and the majority will back you as long as you are fair. Also, remember I said an autocratic entity, so voting is not an option, only fair treatment for all.

From my earlier post, those with gastric bypass surgeries could argue they need more calories to sustain life, but that would threaten the common good of the majority.

Bountyhunter

Maybe they just didn't like his singing! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Vince

Norad45:

Naw, I think it was because they were short people bigots.

If he had been taller, they would probably have helped him dig the foundation.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />