on cometh ivan

made it thru frances now looks like ivan perhaps "watching waiting" we'll see

Good luck, m9key. Keep that BOB handy.

Im not a meterologist so i don't know how true this is but looks like Florida is in for a rought patch - http://www.aberdeennews.com/mld/aberdeennews/news/nation/9603303.htm

Ehhhh, not fun.

<img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />



That's my favorite part of the story. It's so simple. Thanks for sharing Nic.


Robert

Yeah, prepare. But I want to prepare for much longer term than most.

We don't even have basements down here. And I live in a wood frame home. That's stupid. Houses should be built to withstand category 4 winds for hours. This could be (and should be) a non event. Florida needs to evolve to handle hurricanes like northern states handle snow storms. If my house was guaranteed to survive, all I'd do is make sure I had enough supplies to last a week or so, then go inside and lock the door. My anxiety comes from not knowing if the house will still be here next week.

I wonder how much it'd cost to build a house out of concrete? Is it at all comparable to wood frame / cinder block? I'm getting out of this wood stick house and into something else. Probably cinder block. But I'd wouldn't mind having a house built if I thought it would make a real difference in survivability.

Edit:
While I'm ranting... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If we really are going to be seeing more hurricanes, let's stop running power lines above ground, mounting stop lights on cables strung across the street, outlaw advertising signs that put huge sail area 10s of feet above ground, cut back / down all trees anywhere near a structure, forbid tar shingles, require real hurricane shutters, make building the right kind of house easy and the wrong kind (wood frame) darn near impossible.

This is an engineering problem. Hurricanes can be survived. A direct hit doesn't have to mean total infrastructure collapse. Will it be expensive? Oh, yeah. But the cost to fix the damage is already well into the billions. Borrowing from software engineering, why is there never time to do it right but there's always time to do it over?

*sigh*

Ok. I feel better now. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Here ya go
GROO

I remember a statistic from hurricane Andrew, that LOG homes survived intact.
I would second the dome idea, and a company named Deltec markets hurricane proof homes.
Those are round, on a raised pillar type foundation. One is located near my parents coastal NC home, and it has survived many hurricane strikes.
Every time there is an ice storm in central NC, the subject of burying power lines is raised, but Progress Energy
considers it cheaper to repair than replace, even despite the incredible inconvenience to their customers.
Good luck with Ivan!

Try also http://www.monolithicdome.com

I guess moving isn't an option?

Look at ICF systems - insulated concrete forms = monolithic walls. They have been around long enough. In Florida, make sure that your builder uses treated insulation - termites, carpenter ants, etc don't eat plastic foam, but they tunnel thru it at warp 9.

Keeping the lid on can be done many ways. Do at least what the truss manufacturer or someone like Simpson Strong-Ties says - the building code requirements are MINIMUMs, remember? Or for a ton of money you could go with a flat pre-cast concrete roof deck that is properly anchored to the walls. In any case, sooner or later you're going to suffer some damage to the water resistent part of your roof, be it tiles, tin, or epdm, so be prepared for that. Loosing a few tiles - or even all of them - is not the same as having your roof blown off and then your house wracking into a twisted pile of debris because the builder and inspector don't know how to spell "shear wall". (OK - most inspectors know what they are...)

Any well-built home that fully complies with Florida building codes will weather the storms - sadly, even today important details are omitted or poorly done in new construction. And IMHO, the tile roof requirements were poorly thought through and absolutely not uniformly built/inspected correctly. Anyway, a frame house offers no protection against missile damage.

I don't know about hurricanes but I can categorically state that hollow concrete masonry units will NOT stop tornadic missiles very well. Besides, in residential construction you'd have to hover over the masons all day to make CERTAIN that they properly installed, lapped, and grouted vertical reinforcement, horizonatal bond beams and/or joint reinforcement, etc. Sorry, but that's the general case sad truth. Hard enough to do that on commercial construction with an on-site QA guy.

Many of the better-built factory-built homes are FAR superior to stick-built homes in terms of structural integrity - but a lot of that depends on your local state requirements (if any) for factory built homes. The ones that meet our state requirements are STOUT.

Cheaper safety is a concrete-walled safe room inside your conventionally built house - you can even have that retrofitted or DiY to your existing house. Think solid masonry walls with at least #4 rebar in no more than a 2' grid vert x hor. If you use cmu walls, grout every cell full for resistence to missle penetration. Cheaper to form up and pour concrete with the same 2 x 2 grid of #4 or #5 re-bar. Don't forget about the lid of the safe room being able to take large impact loads and carry significant dead loads (like a collapsed house) Won't keep an improperly built house standing, but you'll be safe.

I'll leave the discussion about declaring hurricane damaged areas federal disaster areas for a less kind forum... you're talking about building genuinely hurricane-resistent in the future, which is the way to go, IMHO.

A often-stated thought: How did the Spaniards build there? Aren't there still OLD buildings that have seen generations of hurricanes? I don't know the factual answers to those questions, but it might be useful to look at that.

Food for thought, anyway.

Regards,

Tom

Poured reinforced concrete homes are all the rage in Sweden.

Buy slab property, put your so called moblie home on a frame with wheels and tow it away when needed.

Buy a motor home.

Get your best stuff in the truck, have good insurance and drive away.

Move

How many times does this need to happen before people wise up?

People who voluntarily stay and ride out these storms are doing the gene pool a favor.

Flip

While in the Marines, I lived in Okinawa, Japan for three years. I will say that base housing on that island is definitely built with typhoons in mind.....thick concrete walls....thick glass in STURDY frames....all metal doors with three latches (top, middle, bottom) and hinges that are about eight inches long by about an inch in diameter. We would just "batten down the hatches" and ride 'em out without fear. You would think that SOMEBODY stateside would catch on.

Anyway, best wishes to all who are in harm's way.

Harley

Harley,

I've also lived in that type of Navy housing while living on an island. Our biggest threat was tsunamis.

Other than being up on the water tower, with an inner tube around your waist, our housing is where we had to be during an alert. I think we might have had a reasonable chance of survival. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I take it you don't live in Florida and have never dealt with a hurricane warning.



Yea, they are in Florida too. Built by a company called DiVosta. Unfortunately, they are expensive. I guess we're just supposed to hope we can afford one.



Let's see. Three hurricane scares in the last 4 weeks. We would have towed that puppy to Georgia and back three times at about $2000 a pop. $6000. Yea, I got that laying aroud the house somewhere.



Ok, I'll need a Class A size to fit my family of 4. Guess I'll give the dog away because they are not allowed in most camper parks. Hope the schools are good in that part of town surrounded by bars and strip joints.

.

What if you don't own a truck? And "good" insurance is impossible to get since Hurricane Andrew. Oh, and you better leave a week ahead of the storm or you'll hit a bottleneck in Jacksonville and likely run out of gas as all the stations will be out. Watch the storm come in over I-95 from the comfort of leather seating. Also hope you have an understanding employeer who agrees with your evacuation strategy.



Certainly a viable alternative if you can find a job that pays enough elsewhere.



Wise up and do what? Abandon the State of Florida back to the Seminole and Mikasukke tribes?



I guess you better nominate me and my entire neighborhood for the Darwin awards. The eye of Frances past over our town. We got the eyewall twice. We all came through just fine.

Sorry if I sound a little flippant, but this is a complex problem that is not solved by over-simplified generalizations.

Stay safe.

Craig.

Maybe oversimplified and off the cuff (not meant ot be taken literally granted but:

Why stay in the path of a killer storm?

There is no excuse to put your family at risk when and if you have the means to leave temporarily and have plenty warning.

From what I hear people are deciding to move from Florida because of the prediction this is going to be a yearly thing multiple storms.

Limiting ones exposure to risk in the first place is a basic fundamental of survival I believe.

If Florida is devastated yearly maybe it is time to abandon the state, what good is it if you can't afford to build storm proof housing. As humans we are sometimes slow on the uptake maybe after rebuilding your home the 5 th time in 5 years it may sink in.

There are other jobs and states.

I do feel for people in a situation where they can't afford to leave or physically can't but fail to see why one would stay for any other reason. Time to get out of Dodge.

Flip

Flipper, go get a dictionary and look up, naive. Then apply everything you wrote to YOU, personally, and see how it flies. Sheesh ...

I guess I'm an idiot in some peoples books then, because my semi-retirement plans still include relocating south and staying financially comfortable by taking rich New Yorkers back and forth between Miami and Grand Bahama on a Charter motor-sailer. As long as the weather is as good as it is 9/10ths of the year, and the scenery is what it is, people WILL come, and where tourism is big, people WILL want to be there. Just my two cents worth.

Troy

Maggot:

Now, now, no flaming or you will set a record for having the first non-firearms related discussion thread locked down.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Bounty ?!? .... is that you ??? Are you feeling O.K. ?

Or did some hacker steal your ID on the forum ...??.........

<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Frenchy:

Are you insinuating that I flame people that are really dipsticks, anal retentive, and spinmiesters? <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I am simply flabbergasted and you know "THEY" deserve it. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LOL
<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter

I hope your comments are in gest and relating to the recent "comments" of the member "Flippant" in the AWB thread.

Flippant's comments in this thread are the reason I'm glad I live in FLA.

Flippant,

I guess I'm doing the gene pool a favor, (with my high tax bracket, survivalist instinct, and advanced education) by staying here.

I'm sure my willingness to help out after the storm with EMT, BC, and Comm's skills is a favor to the gene pool too.

Come to think of it, I've ridden out every storm in FLA since I've lived here (25yrs). The genny's are gassed, the batteries are charged, and the guns are loaded. Why don't ya come on down here and see what your superior intellect can add to our obviously deficient gene pool?

We're waitin' for ya!

You know, quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of people judging my (and other Floridian's) situation from a thousand miles away. You wanna judge me? Come on down.

Tell then, STFU. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Gator:

I just don't want this thread locked down because anyone picked on anyone else directly.

It's that old saw where you can say "All lawyers are liars", but if you say it about one; "Here come da judge, here come da judge, order in the court now, here come da judge.

People who do not have others first hand experience can never know what you are going through, so don't let them bother you and laugh it off as you have to use your energy to prepare for Ivan.

Now I have to call my brother in Florida and see if they are evacuating for this one.

Good luck Gator, and all you Floridians!

Bountyhunter

Hey Gator:

Damn glad to have you as a neighbor. How are you guys holding out? Some of my LEO buddies and I got together a couple of weeks ago and sent a truckload of stuff to Punta Gorda P.D. The pictures of the guys receiving the stuff choked me up.

I'd like to think that these types of disasters brings out the best in folks. I guess if you've not been through it (the way we have), its hard to understand.

PM me and let me know how you guys are doing.

Craig

Jupiter, FL

Still fail to see the logic in rebuilding your home 5 times in 5 years as could be the case with new weather patterns as reported by the hurricaine center.

Still don't buy the reasons to dodge corregated roofing material and flying glass and tidal surge when you can leave.

Sure come back after and help thats not the point. Riding out a storm when you have the means not to doesn't seem smart.

Many floridians have heeded this advice by bush and left the area briefly till things blew over.

Hey flame away I'd be packing my family up and leaving dodge for safer locals at least briefly.

There is no reason to put your family at risk IMO when you can leave and come back.

Flip

Does the utopian area that you live in have no detractions, as seen by others?
Earthquakes, wildfires, mudslides, tornados, hail storms, snow storms, floods, blizzards,
ice storms, and lightning are viewed with horror by people who live in areas that don't have that particular type of weather or natural disaster.
East coast types think Californians are crazy to live in earthquake prone areas.
Both coasts look at the midwest tornadoes and think of the movie "Twister".
West coast dwellers think hurricanes are terrible.
It all depends on your perspective.
My parents live on a small island off the Mid-atlantic coast, in an area that has seen its fair share of hurricanes.
They realize that the next storm could completely destroy their home.
They love where they live.
They feel that the positives outweigh the negatives. Beautiful sunrises and sunsets, dolphins playing in the surf,
the occaisional whale sighting, and the general relaxation of living by the ocean balance out the odd hurricane.
They leave the island when a storm gets too close, and repair damage after the storms clear.
They won't move to a different area just because a hurricane might come by again.

I think Flipper was saying it makes no sence to try and "tough out" a storm in your home when you can easily hop in a car and take your family out of harms way. Honestly that makes sence to me, putting yourself in danger and more importantly your family is all vainity, be safe first adn brave second.

Yes, and what this "bug out" strategy fails to take into account is the reality of a mass evacuation in Florida. Since it was ignored the first time, I'll say it again.

Unless you leave 3-5 days in advance of the storm, the likely scenerio is that you and your family will be caught in the worst traffic jam imagineable somewhere south of Jacksonville with your tank out of gas and no way to replace it because all the gas stations will be out.

If the storm track changes just a little (and it usually does), you may find yourself weathering the storm on I-95 in a motor vehicle with a bunch of paniced knuckle heads. Also think about what risk you are putting yourself and your family to be victims of the criminal element sitting on an interstate highway or a lonely exit out of gas with law enforcement unable to aid you.

Add to that scenerio the fact that there are multiple (usually over a dozen) highway deaths caused by each evacuation as people freak out and cause accidents.

Most people simply cannot leave 3-5 days ahead of the storm. The tracks are simply not that accurate and change wildly. Most employers will not close their facilities until an actual hurricane warning is issued which only comes when there is a substantial chance that the area will experience hurricane force winds within the next 24 hours.

24 hours before the storm there was no gasoline to be had in Palm Beach County or anywhere north along I-95.

Now, compare that scenerio to weathering out the storm in a hardened concrete structure with hurricane shutters with a safe room. Also assume you have sufficent supplies to deal with the aftermath of a storm.

When applied to real life (not hypotheticals), the "bug out" option is not all that appealing and I resent the insinuation that I am putting my family at greater risk by not electing to use it. Come down here in walk in my shoes before before jumping to conclusions. The bottom line is that I am more likely to be killed by a freaked-out idiot in an SUV on I-95 than a hurricane. I can't explain it any clearer than that. I'll shut up now.

Stay safe.

Craig.

Craig,

The last 2 storms had almost a week notice. You can be in the car and out inside of 24 hrs.

I guess you can rationalize anything huh.

This ain't jumping to conclusions this is common friggin sense when the world goes for a crapper outside your window and you were told to leave 2 -7 days earlier but didn't.

Whatever floats your boat.
<img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Flip

The local paper today listed the people that died in central Florida because of Frances. All of them were killed in traffic accidents. I agree with Craig that staying close to home is better than getting out on the road with all of the crazies talking on a cell phone and looking for gas.

When you haven't been there and done that suggestions are easy to come by, personally i can't imagine living out where ChrisK does without the house being mounted on big springs and shock absorbers. But my favorite suggestion, now mind you that this was before Disney when you could drive all afternoon and not see anything but citrus groves, was that after we had our week of heater weather for the year that involved a hard freeze which would destroy a bunch of citrus that the dumb people down here should just build green houses over the citrus groves and that would solve the problem of freezing oranges. After all that's how we keep plants warm up north.

DUDE... have the Doc check yer blood pressure.

And the beat goes on...


Don't ask why, it just popped into my head.

Make you own hazards map

I challenge you to find ANY area in the United States that DOES NOT have ANY of the hazards selectable in the list(These are only Floods, Earthquakes, Hail Storms, Hurricanes, Tornadoes and Wind storms) occuring in the last 100 years. If you can find it, and the temperature minimum is 50 degrees, and the maximum is 75 degrees. PLEASE share it with me.

Florida isn't that bad, but there is alot that could be better. Almost every new house survived because they were built to the latest building codes. These don't protect you from the 75 year old rotted oak tree falling into your house though.

Life is nothing but risks and hazards, you just have to mitigate them.
California has earthquakes and wildfires, but yet people still seem to go there.
The northeast has brutal winters, and an affinity for terrorist targets, but yet people still live there.
Hawaii is an island, with the threat of hurricanes and volcanic eruptions, but yet people still live there.
Louisiana has threats of flooding and hurricanes, but yet people still live there.
Florida has daily thunderstorms and threat of hurricanes, but yet people still live here. Deadly major hurricanes only happen every 10-15 years. You're liable to get killed in a car accident, than having your home hit by a major hurricane.

Find me a place without natural hazards. I would probably move there in a heartbeat.

Yup. And the daily thunderstorms scare me more than the hurricanes did / do. The lightning is unbelievable.

Florida had it easy for too long. I think that'll change. We'll adapt. We'll have to if we want to keep our insurance. :-) The problem is not that we have hurricanes, the problem is that we don't have them often enough. If Florida experienced two or three major events a year, every year, we'd be fine. It's the two or three every decade or so that hurt.

According to this article you may well be right:

"Yet for all its fury, this season's burst of activity falls well within the bounds of past experience. What's surprising, say experts, is that the US and Florida haven't seen more major storms make landfall over the past few decades."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0913/p01s03-usgn.html