First Aid Kit: Packing and Stuff?

I'm struggling with my first aid kit. I recently have been re-working my kits and I've decided to try to move from a two tier setup (EDC + backpack) to a three tier setup (EDC + Maxpedition Fatboy + backpack) where the idea is the Fatboy would fit in the backpack. In this plan, the EDC has the most critical stuff, the Fatboy the next most critical and then the backpack has more stuff (actually I was thinking about a forth tier, but I'm getting way off topic).

In any case, my original idea was to have sort of a level 1 and level 2 first aid kits, one in the Fatboy and the other in the backpack. I wanted to use a small waterproof case for these kits. After a bit of playing around, this plan just didn't seem to work out. I picked a couple of different Pelican micro cases, but they are pretty heavy, and.I just couldn't find a happy medium.

So, I decided to go to a single kit, more than I was originally planning for the Fatboy, but smaller than the agreagate of the level 1 + level 2 kits. The plan is to carry this in the Fatboy and the plan is to have it with me nearly always.

Ok, let's get to the point, eh? Well, I finally decided to go with the Pelican 1040 micro case. Basically is was the largest I could reasonably see myself carrying most of the time. But here is the rub. I carefully picked the contents of the kit, but I could barely get them to fit in the 1040.. and... I had to keep paring things down to fit at all. I'd really prefer more stuff, but I also can't see going larger.

As it stands, it is kind of a pain when you open the case, you have to watch out so things don't spill out and you have to fuss with it a bit to get it closed back up.

So what is going on? Am I just a lousy packer? Am I taking too much stuff? What am I doing wrong?

Thanks,

-john


First Aid Kit

1 Pelican 1040 Micro Case
1 Small Scissors
1 .5 oz bottle Betadine
2 Excedrin 2 tablet pack
2 Tylenol 2 tablet pack
1 roll waterproof tape
1 10ml syringe
1 sml roll Tums
2 tablet Claritin
1 .5 oz bottle Hypo Tears
1 roll cotton gauze in plastic
1 digital thermometer
3 sucrets tablets
2 tablet Sudafed
2 tablet Benadryl Allergy
1 razor blade
2 .9g Neosporin Pack
4 large bandaids
4 butterfly closures
2 small, round bandaids
4 small bandaids
1 pair latex exam gloves
2 sterile packs, Steri-Strips (R1546)
1 small pair pointed tweezers
3 packs 3"x4" triple layer non-stick pads
1 pack 2nd Skin burn pad


Oh, and how do people carry those darn exam gloves? They don't fold worth a darn and they take up too much room! I always have a finger flopping out and threatining to get closed in the lid. I've been looking for pairs in sealed packs, but I haven't come across them and I suspect they would take up too much room anyway. Hmm.

Examination gloves I don't actually carry in the kit itself. I just grap a handfull from the lab and put them in a pocket. Dont fold them just scrunch them up. You could always put them in a ziplock bag if worried about wear and tear or contamination. I suppose its easier for me as I have ready access to them. I use them for more than first aid anyway though. I did consider carrying sterile gloves (they come packaged in pairs) but there is no real advantage that I can see to make up for the additional weight and bulk of the packaging.

Consider going for a soft case rather than a hard case. They are much much easier to pack to efficiently use the space.

I assume you have packed the medications along with the instruction sheet but binned the box it all came in? I would look again at some of the meds you are carrying. Some are not really what I would call first aid but are more for comfort. Do you really need to carry them as EDC. In my small FAC (I have a small EDC FAK and a larger one in my backpack) I carry 2 tablets of a prescription painkiller, 2 painkillers (also works as anti-pyretic), 2 anti-inflamitories (can be taken as analgesic at same time as other painkiller in emergency) and 2 antihistamine. I would say that covers me for as much as is possible in a pocket sized FAK. I carry 1 full strip of each tablet in the larger FAK plus some of the other stuff you carry. In the smaller kit I carry just part of the blister pack cut down to shape with scissors to give a rounded edge. I then put a small piece of micropore or masking tape over the foil side to protect it from damage and use an indelible pen to write active ingredient and dose on the tape. The small kit meds are always from the same batch as the large kit that way I still know the expiry date and keep the full instructions in the large kit. DO NOT do this unless you are confident of always knowing the identity of the drugs from size, shape and colour (I am a chemist in the pharmaceutical industry) and try to always use the same brand for familiarity. The writing is for other people in an emergency. Also be very careful if you do not know the contraindications of the drugs you carry without having to look them up!

You don't need butterfly closures and steri-strips. I would lose the butterfly closures.

rather than cotton gauze consider carrying a tampon. Ther are compressed and take up a lot less space.

Hope you found that of some use. The bottom line is that there is no perfect FAK. It depends on your own knowledge of what you can do and an assessment of what you will actually need it for.

I am thinking of doing a three tier setup like yours. Here is what I was thinking of doing. Get a small pouch that can attach with ALICE clips to the outside of the Fatboy. Either the Maxpedition M1 or M5 waistpack would probably work well. There are also many other pouches out there if you look. Put your level 1 kit in the small pouch, and attach it to the Fatboy. Then put your level 2 kit in your backpack in easy reach.

Here's how it would work. When you just have your EDC + Fatboy, you have your level 1 FAK in an external pouch that is easy to get too. Then if your are moving up to EDC + Fatboy + Backpack simply take the pouch off the Fatboy and put it on the outside of your Backpack.

Now you have both FAKs in easy reach and you can use contents from both very easily. I know this isn't a perfect solution for you because you wanted to use hard cases. This was just an idea I had and thought I might share it with you.

I am still looking for the best container, but have settled for now on a spec ops pocket buddy. This is the soft case sized for the thigh pocket of US Battle Dress Utilities (cammies). It comes with two waterproof allosacks (sp?). One holds meds (I carry four doses) and the other carries bandages. I put two ziplocks in as well. One holds general stuff (tweezers, safety pins, etc) the other holds wound management (cleansers, anitbiotics (topical) etc.) Roll of waterproof tape is on the key keeper, and the epi pen is on top in its case. I will replace the zip locks with allosacks when I get a chance. I stuff a trauma bandage in its protective wrap in the outside pocket. Eventually EMT shears will accompany it as well. Still looking for a 2 oz bottle for the betadine solution.

It is not perfect (bulges a little) and can still hold a med manual (similar to the Weiss Medicine for Mountaineering). The allosacks are waterproof to 200 ft and the rest is relatively water resistant anyway. Additionally I vacuum packed a roll of gauze to get rid of the bulk and waterproof it. Worked pretty well.

I use this:
http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.T...t=SearchResults

There are ample slots and pockets in the front and back covers, but the beauty of this case is the ring-bind clear plastic pouches. I have my stuff in the pouches (added a few pouches)according to the "level" of need: Short hike in civilization; Camping trip near emergency medical help; Wilderness/Major kit. The sections work in concert: the Camping section includes the Short Hike pouches... the Wilderness section includes the Camping Section and Short Hike section.
When I want to carry less than the full kit, I pull the pouches and slip them in a pocket or pack.

Well first question in your mind should be what is this FAK gotta serve me for? Is it my personal kit or just all around just in case kit? From what I see you are trying to be a corner drug store (which is good) but unfortunately it takes way to much space. In my opinion when setting up a kit I think about me and my family first, than friends and than strangers.

1 Pelican 1040 Micro Case - good case. I would tape First Aid instruction to the top lid together with expiration dates on the meds and any medical conditions you may have, allergies and current medications.

1 Small Scissors - why? you have scissors on your mutlitool or sak, plus little scissors are not substitute for trauma shears. Unless it is a nail cutter/hygiene device which really has no place in the FAK. Unsupervised they also can puncture stuff.

1 .5 oz bottle Betadine - I would loose the bottle and get the swipes or wipes. Less mess and you don’t use your sterile pads for application.

2 Excedrin 2 tablet pack

2 Tylenol 2 tablet pack - I would make it four

1 roll waterproof tape - I love the tape. This is the best thing ever. Did I mention that I love the tape?

1 10ml syringe - why?

1 sml roll Tums - if you use them a lot i would keep the roll otherwise would carry only few of them

2 tablet Claritin -

1 .5 oz bottle Hypo Tears - is it because you wear contact lenses? or just in case? If this is just in case I would loose it (unless you have space)

1 roll cotton gauze in plastic - I would get a cravat and loose that gauze... use your sterile pads for direct wound cover and attach it with tape, cravat or tear something like a tshirt. If you need a blood stoper/absorber use a tampon.

1 digital thermometer - why? knowing exact temperature will not help you out a bit. Learn between hot, normal and cool and cold... you can measure it with the top portion of your hand

3 sucrets tablets

2 tablet Sudafed - do you see the difference in SUdafed and Bendaryl when in use? Do you prefer one over another? If you think one is better I would stick with that.

2 tablet Benadryl Allergy

1 razor blade - this should be in your PSK already.

2 .9g Neosporin Pack - that's good

4 large band aids

4 butterfly closures - if you need that you either need stitches or your cut is in the weird spot. Nothing tape wouldn’t fix. I would loose that.

2 small, round bandaids

4 small bandaids

1 pair latex exam gloves - I carry two pairs. First of all you have to remember that they are not sterile unless they are packed in separate bag by the manufacturer. Gloves are there to protect you from contamination not your patients (well to the point if you are sick you don't want your patient to get what you have). Now the way I carry mine is that I pack two together and roll them into small squares starting at fingers. This pushes all the air out and I'm set.

2 sterile packs, Steri-Strips (R1546) - why?

1 small pair pointed tweezers

3 packs 3"x4" triple layer non-stick pads - get two 4by4s... they are sterile and each pack contains 2 pads... if you need more than two to control bleeding you are in trouble.

1 pack 2nd Skin burn pad - skip this add water burn jel (pocket) and use non stick pads


To your setup I would add aspirin, Imodium and some kind of cpr barrier (if you know how to do cpr).

Now when I wrote my comments I don't mean to say that you are wrong in what you are carrying. I just tried to give you a different point of view on what I would carry. I also have a modular kit. My basic kit lacks certain stuff due to my philosophy is sucking pain up but in my extended kit I also carry weird stuff such as Narcan, Atropine, Dextrose, Thiamine, Glucagon, Epinephirne, Lidacaine, Lasix, Nitro, prescription eye drops and I carry Normal Saline in order to set a drip up. I have few syringes, needles and suture kit. But my expanded kit is for no one but me, my family and my closes friends (only in emergency situation as in during kayaking trip when no help can be found within 5-6 hours). My expanded kit also has a lot of trauma supplies. My super extended kit has O2 supplies and airway maintenance kit (intubation). Again "right to use" of this kit belongs to me only and I will not use it on the stranger or even a friend if I know I can get help to them (unless I work under someone’s medical license like during blackout when I would grab it and throw it on the ambulance since restocking was limited and far in between). And remember you can have a pocket hospital in you kit but without skills and training it will do more harm than help.

Very nice way of sorting out your everyday carry things was given to me by another member on this board. He told me to lay out my EDC items and write them down. Carry all of them for a week and jot down which item I used and how many times. Items that were big and bulky but used 0 times were potential candidates for back pack carry or actually leaving them at home. Some items such as FAKs would not be used every day (which is good) but when you used them notice the pattern of which meds and supplies you rotate thru. I’m big on cuts and burns so my EDC FAK has load of band aids, 4by4s, alcohol wipes, burn jel and antibiotic ointment. Less on other medications. But if you are a person that has allergies, gets cold often or headache maybe a med part should be extended and trauma should be kept to the minimum.

Just my two cents. Cheers. Half fun is putting your kit together.

Matt

JohnN--

Good list, but I'd question a few things. The scissors, for instance...Carry a Swiss Army Knife or Leatherman Micra (or copy) with scissors, instead. Leave them out of the FAK.

The thermometer is unneccessary in a pocket FAK, though I think I've got one in my vehicle kit--gotta double check that (we have small children, & it is nice to have when travelling!).

The tears solution...why? Do you wear contacts, or is it to irrigate/flush an object from the eye? If the former, OK, you need it. If the latter, use drinking water, or get small single use ampules of tear solution or saline. I explained what I wanted to my Opthalmologist & asked his advice; he gave me several samples for my various kits, some of which contained multiple single use ampules. Those got divided among kits. By the way, I'm not against having something dedicated for an eyewash (I obviously have it, but just in the smallest possible package). I'm not looking for extended, repeated use--just true first aid. We like to ride excursion trains--especially steam locomotives, & when you get a cinder in your eye, you want it washed out quickly!

On re-reading the thread, I see I'm merely repeating some of what Matt said, so I'll end now. He's made pretty much the same points I was about to make.

Good luck in your choices.

David

Good start, I'm not sure what situations you are planning for. A 3 or 4 inch Ace type wrap has multiple uses. I skip the small and regular bandaides and include an assortment of "knuckle and finger" type and a couple of the extra large as well.

First, thanks Matt (and everyone else), these are great comments. I'll try to go over Matt's comments for now since I need to get on the road t the office soon.



Yah, when I saw your message I realized I should have given a bit more context in this regard. I live in the Seattle, WA area and work in downtown Seattle. Other than the general uncertanty of life, one thing that is on my mind when I prepare my kits is the possibility of an earthquake, and what it might mean for me working downtown.

So, in a lot of ways, I've tailored my personal kits around this possibility. While I am not strickly trying to prepare for an earthquake, it seems to be a superset of a lot of situations from a preperation perspective.

So, my thinking is I need to escape my building, deal with injuries and possibly hoof it 25 miles home through debris.

I am also likely to take the same kit on light backpacking trips.

In a limited emergency, I would use the kit for whomever. In a large scale emergency, certainly my focus is myself and my family and friends, but to be honest, I would probably still use anything I had left on whomever and just take the risk of having no supplies left.



Yes, I was going to add instructions and inventory to the kit.



True, I carry an S2 on my EDC which has small scissors. However, I kind of want to be able to open the first aid kit w/o rummaging for other things. These are decent sewing scissors.. You don't think they would suitable for trauma shears?



I'll be on the lookout for something like this. Now that you mention it, didn't someone sell swabs that were filled with Betadine or something? I was thinking the larger bottle would allow me to pour into a wound.




Ok.



Yah, I figured I'd get some flack carrying a full roll of tape, but I think it is worth the bulk.



Wound irrigation.



The pack is pretty small, but I will consider losing some. The gotcha is packing loose stuff is kinda a problem unto itself. Maybe I'llcome across individually packed ones somewhere.



I sometimes do wear contact lenses and not having something to clear/wet your eyes can be a real pain. However, it is a good point that this isn't really first aid. I'll think about it. As someone else pointed out, if I can get little single use packets you could have the best of both worlds.



Stupid question, what is a cravat? I'll look it up later I guess. Interesting point, I was actually wondering if this was needed when I was putting the kit together considering the sterile pads. I'll put this on the list for likely removal.



Hmm. Living in the NW, I tend to think about hypothermia as a possible issue. I was thinking being able to objectively observe true body tempature might be useful, but perhaps this is just silly. I imagined that there might be other uses as well, but I suppose if I can't arriculate them I don't have a good argument for inclusion. :-)




You mean the Claritan? Yah, this falls into the comfort realm again. Actually, this whole group of drugs probably fall into this realm. Typically I would use the Claritan for normal allergies. If I got into something or was having some more serious reaction the Benadryl is much more effective, but has the side effect of making you a bit drowsy and loopy.



Yah, now that you mention it they are probably redunant. I tossed them in because they were super small, but in hindsight they aren't useful so I'll take these out.




Yah, I wanted two pairs (seems proportional to the rest of the kit), but I has having a hard time fitting them in. So, after you roll them up do you put something around them to keep them rolled? This is an area I'm having trouble with.



Wound closure. I have to admit I am partially swayed because I think these things are the best thing since sliced bread. They don't take up much room.



I'll have to look for the 4x4. You think the extra inch matters much? I think the 3x4 might fit into the case a bit better. One of my concerns is not so much that *I* might need several of these, but that there might be serveral people might need them at the same time.




I'll look for this, but these things are slick and don't take up much room.



Yah, if I take out the guaze, I might have room. I'll have to look at cpr barriers. I wonder how bulky they are.



No, this is great. This is exactly the type of feedback I'm looking for to help me look at this from other points of view.

Thanks!

-john

"The scissors, for instance...Carry a Swiss Army Knife or Leatherman Micra (or copy) with scissors, instead."

Personally, I disagree. Paramedic shears are designed to cut open clothing to expose an injury without risking further damage to the patient. The "scissors" in a SAK are pointed and quite small; in an emergency where someone is losing blood rapidly, they would simply take too long (have you ever tried cutting up a pair of blue jeans with a SAK) and if you try to rush, you run the risk of sticking the patient with the point of the scissors.

Blunt tipped scissors would be far better; professional paramedic shears (or possibly a BenchMade Rescue Hook) would be even better.

BTW, you can see the sissors that are in my first aid kit here. Note that overall kit pictures are outdated. I'll redo when I get things settled down.

So I assume you think the risk is enough that I should try to find some blunt ones? I'll have to look around and see what I can find.

-john

I still dont understand what you guys want to expose... If the wound is so serious, mechanism of injury and protocols will suggest other stuff to worry about than wound exposure (airway, c-spine)... Plus what are you going to do with 3 sterile pads after you expose a deep wound? I'm just saying old medical motto "Do no harm". Shears have a place in your hiking, wildlife, car or home FAK...

Plus of course the size. Shears are pretty big. Want soemthing small? Try Benchmade rescue hook.

Matt

Aardwolfe--

You're right about the paramedic shears, though at a considerable space penalty. The BM Rescue Hook is better, space-wise, but not as versatile. There's been considerable discussion in this forum re: shears vs. blade. Paramedics of my acquaintance tend to use blades for clothing removal, & shears for other things. But, the shears do get the job done safely; that's why a pair is in my vehicle kit, which BTW, is in an orange Pelican 1150 case (lunch-box sized).

However, I don't think the shears will fit in the Pelican MicroCase that JohnN is using as a FAK container. If they will, they'll be even bigger than the ones he's using now, taking up more space. Remember, this is basically a pocket-sized FAK.

JohnN, having now viewed the photo of some of your gear & having read your responses & reasonings, I'd suggest placing a medium or small SAK in the kit. It would take up less room, offer the same "grab & go" completeness, and offer more blades, too.

But, you've still got the pointy scissors. Personally, I don't find that to be much of a problem, nor using a bare blade to do the same. I've removed clothing with the scissors on a Vic Classic, and also with a locking folder. Both took a bit of care on my part, but were done in complete safety with no harm.

If just cutting away clothes is the issue, perhaps one of those X-Acto blade based letter openers would be a viable, low-use alternative. It'll be dull after a pair of blue jeans, but would work!

Bandage, or Lister, scissors might be a compromise. I've got full-sized ones in the FAK at home, & a smaller pair handy in a bedroom drawer. REI sells an even smaller pair (less than 5" long) that might work for you, too. They'd certainly fit your container.

Thanks for starting this; it's making me think about what I've got, & how I've got it distributed.

David

For example,the kit I make for my parents will vary a LOT from my "General "FAK. Based on expected useage and training/ability. I have a kit specifically for shooting that is designed for treating gunshots and there is a full on Trauma Bag in my commute vehicle. Niether of these kits has any bandaids. If you really need what's in these kits, you are well past the band aid stage. There is a general FAK in the vehicle for lesser routine problems. For day hikes, the kit has Ace wraps and a SAM splint.Even when you finally get it all "perfect" you will find a way to "improve" it.

In reply to:
"There's been considerable discussion in this forum re: shears vs. blade. Paramedics of my acquaintance tend to use blades for clothing removal, & shears for other things. But, the shears do get the job done safely; that's why a pair is in my vehicle kit, which BTW, is in an orange Pelican 1150 case (lunch-box sized). "

Just to throw my 2 cents in:

I use shears almost exclusively, for clothing, seatbelts, etc. The primary purpose to expose or remove clothing is to allow proper examination of the body (for signs of injury i.e. bruising) after, as Matt has pointed out, the care of the ABC’s. The secondary purpose to expose or remove clothing is to clean and treat wounds and/or injuries. The third reason to remove clothing is to allow for proper immobilization of the injured or suspect body part. The cutting away of clothing vs. traditional removal is to prevent further injury to the body and to minimize pain in doing so. It has been my experience shears allow me to remove clothing, etc. with minimal movement to the body. While I have used a variety of blades, I still prefer a pair of blunt tipped shears. I have found the ones at the dollar store work just as well as many of the “EMT/Trauma” shears. Also, keep in mind there are times when it is best to leave clothing (i.e. shoes/boots) in place, as they provide a degree of immobilization. Just my opinion - Pete

Hi, Pete!

At the risk of helping this thread wander further afield...

Searching all posts for "shears" will find the discussions. The one I remembered best was Matt's description of the BM Rescue Hook.

Re: Shears vs. Blades
I wonder if there is a regional, local, or institutional bias toward one or the other? As I noted above, most of the Paramedics, EMTs & firefighers I know (and I'm not one, BTW) use & prefer blades over shears. My observation is that use of shears is a decided minority around here (middle Tennessee).

Might it have something to do with an emphasis in training? or rules/regulations in departments/agencies?

Just curious. Thoughts, anyone?

David

Hi David, thanks for the comments.



Have you found any other source for the ampules other than your opthamologist? They sound perfect.

Thanks,

-john

I'm planning something pretty similar. I already ordered a Maxpedition M2 and wear it on my belt (EDC). I purchased a couple of malice clips so that I can attach it to the Fatboy as desired. Right now I haven't completely decided what goes in the M2 vs my pockets but the idea is I have that flexibility. I'm actually kind of leaning towards most of my EDC in my pockets with my PDA and phone in the M2, but I do like the flexibility this provides.

BTW, this Maxpedition stuff is pretty cool. I can't wait to get my Fatboy. I'm already pondering the backpacks...

-john

This gets me thinking. Maybe I could get some sort of pouch and adhere it to the outside of the kit and put the gloves in there. Makes them easier to get before you even dive into the kit and if you just stuffed them in there it might actually deal with the bulk and stuff. Hmm.



Hmm. Part of the reason I picked the hard case was to make it so I didn't have to deal with waterproofing and wearproofing the various items. Previously I had just stuffed things into a double bagged ziplock, but then I put the meds in little bottles, and stuff in other bags and stuff and I was still worried about crushing it in my pack (I'm not delicate with it). On the other hand, I can see where these cases are not optimal. The weight is a big one, and the other problem I run into is that the lid portion is not just a lid, but also part of the sides. That means you kind of have to "pile" stuff up to use the whole space. Obviously a bit of a problem. I do think most soft cases don't have this problem.



Yah, I've been working to get as much stuff as possible with little single use packets so they contain instructions on them. However that doesn't apply to everything, but there isn't much in there and nothing too exotic.



Agreed. Considering I try to think about being a bit of an island, I do pack some stuff that fits into the comfort catagory. Nothing worse than being stuck in an airport or something and feeling sick and not being able to do anything about it. I'm willing to deal with a bit of the weight and bulk penalty this implies, but I do need to make sure I don't get too carried away in this respect.




I'll lose the butterfly closures. I'm still waiting for someone to beat some sense into me before I lose the steri-strips! :-)



After the discussion here, I'm just going to lose it all together. Good idea tho.



Yes, the ideas are great. Thanks!

-john

I went to their web site and didn't see this. Does it go by another name?



Isn't that pretty big? My .5 oz is about as big as I'd want to carry around...



Great idea! I think I'm going to lose the gauze, but I have been impressed how well vacuum packing works in regard to bulk. The only down side is that it might slow you down a little bit getting it out.

-john

Ok, based on your suggestions, here are my revisions so far:

First Aid Kit

1 Pelican 1040 Micro Case
1 Small Scissors
1 .5 oz bottle Betadine
2 Excedrin 2 tablet pack
2 Tylenol 2 tablet pack
1 roll waterproof tape
1 10ml syringe
1 sml roll Tums
2 tablet Claritin
1 .5 oz bottle Hypo Tears
1 roll cotton gauze in plastic (DELETED)
1 digital thermometer
3 sucrets tablets
2 tablet Sudafed
2 tablet Benadryl Allergy
1 razor blade
2 .9g Neosporin Pack
4 large bandaids
4 butterfly closures (DELETED)
2 small, round bandaids
4 small bandaids
1 pair latex exam gloves
2 sterile packs, Steri-Strips (R1546)
1 small pair pointed tweezers
4 packs 3"x4" triple layer non-stick pads (+1)
1 pack 2nd Skin burn pad (DELETED)
2 packs burn cream (ADDED)

I replaced the burn pad with another non-stick pad and burn creme. I figured I would get a bit more flexibility this way.

I'm sticking with the small scissors for now. I went to REI and looked at their small shears and I think the scissors I have are probably a bit more useful. I'll keep thinking about it.

I plan to get some more Tylenol. I'll be on the lookout for smaller Tums packs.

I'll see if I can find a pouch to attach to the outside of the kit for gloves. If I find something I'll probably add another pair.

Thanks for the suggestions. Keep them coming!

-john


Revised Kit Pictures

In reply to

"In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You don't need butterfly closures and steri-strips. I would lose the butterfly closures.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I'll lose the butterfly closures. I'm still waiting for someone to beat some sense into me before I lose the steri-strips! :-)"

I actually meant you didnt need both! I am a huge fan of steri-strips and have some in all of my FAKs

Next to my wave sheat I have a glove pouch that fits exactly to pairs (this is also a reason I don't want to put any more extra pouches on my belt) ... It works great for few reasons:

-when there is need for BSI (Body Substance Isolation) I can get to them without fumblign in the backpack
-patient care is not delayed
-I have a tendency to use them more often
-quick oil check or any dirty work is performed without worry about dirtying my hands
-with two pairs I know I can I have a "spare" for a partner

Galls sells that pouch in 1, 2 and 4 pair version.

Matt

The pouch actually goes by the name Dry Cell On-board. I was guessing on the size at 2 oz, but it should be around there IMHO. THe Dry Cell could be about a 1/2 inch thicker.

Anyone know how to armor an epi pen better than the thin plastic tube they come in?

Blades, rescue hooks, etc. have a coolness factor <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> that blunt tip shears do not. It might be an age thing as well <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />. Pete

Well biggest detterance from using knives and hooks is price. In hectic situation it is easy top loose shears... so it is easy to loose small rescue hook as well... I would cry less if I lost shears. That's why I carry both.

Just a quick two cents...

I converted everything from band-aids to dumbells to tape and all with Hypafix. This stuff is amazing. It's basically a large band of synthetic cloth with cyanoacrylate under it. Very strong tensile strength and great adherence to the skin (almost too much sometimes). You can close big wounds, hold an ankle, hold gauzes, make a plaster... you name it.

On the 8th day, the Lors created Duct tape... then on that evening he thought "Oh, I've got a better idea"... that was Hypafix.

Cheers,

David

RE: epi-pen protection

Look around for a single-catheter sharps container, or mayhaps, a cigar tube...

Hardware and hobby stores have clear plastic tubes in different diameters and end caps to match. Buy what you need and cut to length and pop on the end caps.
You could tape or rubberband it to a tongue depressor to give it some protection.

I am thinking one of those travel toothbrush holders might work. The round kind are large enough, I think. Might have to run by Wally world and check them out.
I have mine in a plastic "pencil box" in my backpack, along with a few useful items <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pete--

Good point about the relative age of the person.

Matt--

Yep, you're right about easy to lose. I "lost" a Spyderco Delica by loaning it to a paramedic friend, who really did lose it on a call.

I have a pair of EMT shears in the back of my truck right now that I literally picked up in the driveway of a McDonald's. Good thing is, they have the owner's name on them. Bad thing is, I don't know which of several rural ambulance services/rescue units/volunteer fire units he/she belongs to, & haven't had time to find out. Will be glad to return them as soon as I can do so.

You're also right about the "coolness" factor. The BM hook is sharp (pun intended).

David

Metal Cigar Tube will work as well.

Matt

Wouldn't you know, I ended up in a cigar shop yesterday. Bought a Helix cigar in its metal tube (looked about right). It fits the epi pen perfectly in diameter (without the plastic) and has enough room for some foam in the ends as cushion. It also still fits in my spec-op case as well. While it has a cork seal on it, I think I will put a wrap or two of teflon tape on the threads.

By the way, anyone want a cigar, I don't smoke.

Matt,
You asked the original poster, Why benydryl and Sudafed?

I know that I also carry both - I have border line HBP, and I'm NOT allowed to take Sudafed (or any Pseudoephedrine HCL), but my wife and I both found it worked better, so I keep it for her. I _AM_ allowed to take Benydryl, so I carry that for ME

As for bandages RE taking more than a couple of 4x4 pads - Only ONCE have I needed more than that, and ever since then, I tend to keep at least one serious bandage around - Nowadays, it's usually a Cederoth Bloodstopper. I pray that I never have to use any ot them (car kit, backpack, home), ditto the trauma pads that I got for free that I keep at work. When it get to the point I have to use one of those, it's just me hoping I can stop the guy from bleeding out before the pros get there (The one time I needed it, we ended up using a clean rag - it was a serious MVA, and the guy had a cut about 1/2 way to bone on his calf. Not a pretty sight) (shudder 25 years later at the thought)

Yeah if it's for your wife and you than carring two types of meds is justified. I was just thinking that if you only use meds yourself I would caryr the one that works better.

You are right about 4by4s... Problem is the space. If you are makign a portable kit than there is not much you can fit in there. On the other hand if youa re packing your bigger kits (like car kit) sky is the limit as far as the amount of 4by4s you can take.

But you also brought up a perefect example of what i was talking about few replies above:

You got a call to an MVA with a nasty cut. What would you do first as a bystander:
is it airway managment?
is it cspine precautions?
is it calf wound that poses no threat?
would you tell the guy to get out of the car so you can take care of his leg?
would you be brave enough to apply TQ?
will you use quickclot and [censored] of ER staff?

A lot of times short of serious bleeds that put people into shock bleeding is not that big of a priority. Yeah you want to stop it eventualy but c spine and air way is your priority.

Matt

My first aid kit also gets used on my pets (far more than on humans) and once on someone else's dog which had been in a MVA. Worst injury was a metal fence post entering hind leg just above the "knee" and exiting at the hip on a working dog. Fortunately my partner was a vet nurse. Problem being I cant just phone for an ambulance for a dog the way I would for my son so I have to be able to treat much more serious wounds than I would like and stabilise wounds for far longer. Having had to use most of my clothing as dressings and run for 4 miles carrying a large mut with improvised dressings I carry a FAK adjusted for pets. Something to think about if you have pets. So pissing off ER may not always be a problem.

Man, I thought I was the only one doing this.

I have a setup exactly like rbruce's. Works perfectly.

John, in looking at your FAK photo’s, I see you have a lot of bulky packaging. Work to eliminate bulky packaging. I use unitized FAK items from North safety to facilitate this goal. Available through industrial FAK suppliers normally found in the yellow pages.

1 Small Scissors These scissors are ok, but consider a pair of bandage scissors.

1 .5 oz bottle Betadine. Consider Betadine pads as it takes 50 drops to 500 mL of water for irrigation of wounds.

Consider putting all Meds in a small set of vials (red topped tube in photo by knife blades) like Doug uses.
2 Excedrin 2-tablet pack
2 Tylenol 2 tablet pack
2 tablet Sudafed
2 tablet Benadryl Allergy
2 tablet Claritin
3 Sucrets tablets

1 sm. roll Tums. Use the individual dose packages. Available through the industrial FAK suppliers as mentioned above.

1 roll waterproof tape. Why so much in this type package? I wound 1 meter around a paper clip and I then put a heavy-duty sewing needle down one side of the paper clip.

1 10ml syringe This is a good idea, but in the case of the size of your container, use a 1 qt. Ziplock bag. Poke a hole in one corner if needed for wound irrigation. Also gives you an extra water storage container.

1 .5 oz bottle Hypo Tears. A small individual dose like minidrops works ideally in tight spaces.

1 roll cotton gauze in plastic. This is also ok. Vacuum package the roll if you can to reduce bulk.

1 digital thermometer. Good if you can squeeze this in. Otherwise don’t bother.

1 pair latex exam gloves. 1 pair will fit into a 35mm film canister if nothing else works. The canister will fit the 1040 box.

3 packs 3"x4" triple layer non-stick pads. Using a unitized 4” bandage compress dressing in place gives you a package about 4” L x 2” W x ¼” D

Everything below sounds good to me! If you have the room and want it, add it.
1 razor blade
2 .9g Neosporin Pack
4 large bandaids
4 butterfly closures
2 small, round bandaids
4 small bandaids
2 sterile packs, Steri-Strips (R1546)
1 small pair pointed tweezers
1 pack 2nd Skin burn pad

If you reduce the bulk, then everything should fit.

Goodluck,

Stargazer

"If we believe in absurdities, we shall commit atrocities - Voltaire"

As far as I can tell most of these are larger than the ones I have in the kit.



I'm going to start a seperate topic about this.



Hmm. It seems like if you put them in their own vials they would take up too much space and if you put them all in one you have a problem keeping them straight.



Yah, it might be a bit carried away. I can probably just find a smaller roll.



Clever idea. I'm doing better on the space front so I think I'll keep it for now.



I hadn't found a source for the little ampules. However while the one of the grocery stores today I scored! They carried them so I have replaced the bottle with two ampules. Cool.




Things are starting to fit a lot easier now with the various adjustments. However, I think I will look for a pouch to put these on the outside.



Thanks! We are definately making progress!

-john

I based my small FAK on a pouch made by Sawyer that they don't carry anymore. It has a mesh pouch on the outside where I keep my nitrile gloves and some ear plugs. (I carry this kit when I travel on planes, and the ear plugs + a couple benadryl = no more red eyes ). I need to post a picture, I suppose.

TheraTears is another brand that offers single-use eyedrop containers. Works well for me in a small FAK.

For a CPR barrier, there are many keychain-sized units, but the one I've found most convenient for EDC is the Laerdal FaceShield. I carry one in my wallet and 1 in each of my small FAKs.

Otherwise, I've got pretty much the same stuff listed here.

Stargazer wrote:


JohnN wrote:


I was at the dog park the other day and my dog got some grass seeds in her eye. I nabbed my FAK and used some of these eye drop ampules to flush them out.

So I go to re-fill the used items. The particular ones I have are called Bion Tears. They come in a box with little foil packets. The foil packets contain four individually sealed ampules.

When opening the foil packet, I notice the following note: "Use all containers within four days of opening pouch."

Why would they go bad?

Are they safe to use? I really just need sterile saline, but I figured these would be OK too since they are ment to be safe to put in your eyes. Hmm.

Thoughts?

BTW, I'm still pretty happy with my current EDC FAK. At this point I don't tend to carry the gloves anymore, but will probably revisit that when I can get myself some individual packaged gloves so I don't always have to try to stuff them in there.

Thanks,

-john

Sometimes the word overkill comes to mind when trying to plan any type of kit from fak to edc or b.o.b. In your case here are some suggestions:
-small scissors could be replaced by SAK or multi tool ones
-meds-really consider whats most freq. used day to day for your "daily carry"
-coflex is a great product that combines the usefulness of tape with the coverage of "kling" gauze
-thermometer-best for car fak or long term situation-hot is hot and cold is cold right? If you ever suspect fever, a theraputic dose of tylenol wouldnt hurt the average person
-steri strips -if applies properly are the same as a butterfly
-bandaids-stick to regular size and large-the round dots are useless for most applications
-burn pad is nice but again if your going for light weight and or alternatives it could be skipped
-gloves-at least 2 pair-what if one tears? they also could be used for emergency water bucket
-tweezers could be carried as part of sak but again here the razor blade or even a sterlized safety pin could be used to dislodge a splinter
-gloves can be rolled from fingers inward then tuck the roll inside itself (cuff of glove) you could even use a rubberband to hold the roll together
Hope this helps...........

An out of the box idea;

I always pack a bit of "survival" stuff in the corners of my first aid kits -- water tablets, a lighter, small folding knife, fishing line, etc.

TRO

I use either a ziploc baggie or a 35mm film canister -- a pair of xl gloves just fits. Now, how often should I be replacing them?

TRO

Depends upon how long they have been sitting around before you repackaged them. It also depends upon what they have been exposed to (sunlight, heat, freezing, etc.). Gloves are cheap, and are intended to protect YOU, so replace them often. Since I use mine about once a month, they get replaced about once a month. Use the old gloves when working on your car, cleaning a knife or firearm, painting, cleaning the bathroom, etc.

Update: v5

- Back up to the 1040 case
- Few more eye wash ampules
- (2) Benadryl caps
- (2) Gas-X tabs (I've heard they can help in case of dog bloat)
- (1) Imodium A-D (why not?)
- (3) Small bandages (why not?)
- (4) Alcohol swabs
- Slant tweezers
- Safety razor
- (4) Pepto Bizmo tabs (replace roll of Tums)
- (1) Glucose tablet

Thinking about:
- Adding micro headlamp
- Adding pointed scalpel (squared off razors have their limits)
- Replacing syringe w/12cc irrigation syringe (on order)
- Some sort of small magnifying lens

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

-john

Detailed Gallery

How about getting a Leatherman Micra? It has a blade wich, when very sharpened,
can replace the scalpel-and razor blades. It also has a pair of tweezers and good scissors.

Also I would replace the small bottle of Betadine with some Povidone-Iodine swabs if available.

I don't think you'll need a thermometer in your kit. If you really want to, replace it with a 'flexible-thermometer' wich take up far less space.

Rewind de medical tape on a small object, for example a paper-clip. You'll probably won't need a whole roll.

Use only 1 steri-strip pack. Add some small Band-Aid butterfly closures.

Do you really have to carry that much saline ampules? I carry 2 10ml ampules in my FAK. Seems like you carry more.

That's about it. Good luck!

My daypack- FAK
My EDC FAK

OK, new FAK V6.

(I've made a few changes since these pictures, but very minor)

Note, this FAK is my EDC kit and is fairly streamlined in order to support EDC carry.

My EDC bag is now a Maxpedition Condor II. Main exterior pocket is dedicated to FAK (this gives me a bit more room than previous EDC kits):





As can be seen in photo:

• Pocket Mask (pair gloves inside)
• Pair of Epi-Pens
• Trauma bandage (w/pair of gloves)*
• Small pair scissors*
• Small pair diagonal cutters*
• Main FAK container*

* Slight update. All these items have been moved into a single Snapware 1 liter container.

In addition to a pair of gloves in the kit, I have an Emdom "Grobes" Glove Pouch with several pairs of Nitrile exam gloves attached to the exterior of my EDC bag (upper leftmost pouch as viewed in this picture):



Inside the primary FAK container, we see the following:

• Various sizes BloodStop gauze (2x4", 2x2")
• .5 oz bottle, Betadine solution
• (2) caplets, Benadryl
• (2) packets, Burn Jel
• (2) packets, aspirin
• (2) packets, Tylenol
• (2) packets, Gas-X
• thermometer
• Steri-Strips
• Disposable razor
• Petzl e+Lite headlamp
• Tape
• 3x4" non-stick pads
• glass signal mirror (assist self-aid in hard to reach/see spots)
• Magnifying glass
• Safety pin
• Alcohol swaps
• (4) tablets, Pepto-Bismol
• packet, Imodium
• Triple Antibiotic Ointment
• Ampules saline (eye flush)
• Irrigation syringe
• sharp point tweezers
• blunt point diamond coated slant tweezers
• Glucose tablet
• Bandages, finger sized
• Bandages, standard sized
• Straight razor blades
• Pair #10, #15 & #11 scalpel blades
• #3 Scalpel handle

[FULL SIZED FAK PICTURES]

I've moved some things out of the FAK proper and now include them in the "convenience" section of my primary kit.

This includes additional quantities of Benadryl, Sudafed, throat lozenges, Claritin, Tums, Tylenol, etc.

The idea is to try to re-focus the kit on more urgent needs but still having a supply of comfort and convenience items, and to decouple the inventory of these two categories.

The new container is lighter, better sized and better shaped while still being waterproof and protecting the items from crushing (lots cheaper, too). It also allows me to move the trauma bandages inside the kit, an improvement IMO.

I've actually picked up some of the 86 oz. versions to re-pack my car kits.

Yes, there are some overlaps with items in my primary kit (mirror, headlamp, etc.). I thought about this and wanted to have most things in one place to avoid having to look around and remember where things were at.

There are also a few items that are probably not strictly needed (the aforementioned thermometer for example, alcohol pads, more than necessary Steri Strips) but I contemplated the size/bulk/weight and ended up saying "why not".

Note this kit isn't the only one I have around. For example, I have a kit in my office that contains more trauma bandages, etc. in case of an earthquake. Another kit similar to this one in the car, but slightly better stocked. The idea is this should be the minimal I have on me, and depending on the situation, I hopefully can bolster it with additional layers of kits.

Next steps:

Actually, over all I'm pretty happy with the kit the way it is.

That said, after starting to watch the Backcountry Medicine 101 video, I think I might add some duct tape directly to the FAK (I have some in the primary kit) and some more safety pins. Oh, and it did get me itching to put a Sam Splint in the kit for neck immobilization.

Suggestions and comments welcome.

-john

My thoughts are that you have an excessive amount of edged tools for a FAK this size. I realize that they are all pretty small, but I can't imagine that you'll need all of these:


Consider swapping all this out for a decent pair of trauma shears and one (or possibly two) scalpel blade(s).


Once again, for the size of the kit, consider picking one pair of tweezers and eliminating the other two.

I would add a couple more safety pins, as well as half a dozen or so disposable probe covers for the thermometer. Consider some type of occlusive bandage (3" x 9" petrolatum gauze pad) and rolled gauze (Kerlix or PriMed) to go along with the ETD that you have.

Looking closely at your photo, the glucose tablet expired in July of 2007, so you probably want to replace that.

Overall, you've done a very nice job with the FAK, and the Condor II looks to be a very nice pack.

Jim

Heh. I saw that one coming! Yah, I agree I probably have more than strictly necessary cutting tools for a kit of this size.



I've found both the pointed and slant tweezers to be useful. Originally I was going to remove the tweezers from the magnifying glass, but in actually trying to *use* the magnifying glass on myself, I found them useful so went ahead and left them. I suppose I could remove the other sharp pointed tweezers, but they are much better quality than the ones on the magnifying glass. Point taken in any case.



Can you suggest in what cases and how it would be better to use these items vs. (or in conjunction with) what I have?



Good catch. Now that you mention it, I should do an expiration date inventory.



Thanks. And thanks for your feedback.

-john

When compared to traditional gauze pads/sponges, an occlusive dressing (films, foams, hydrogels, hydrocolloids, alginates) form an effective barrier to bacteria and promote wound healing by maintaining a moist wound environment. They are also useful with open (sucking) chest wounds to treat or prevent a tension pneumothorax resulting from a penetrating trauma/collapsed lung.

Kerlix is the brand name for different sizes of rolled gauze manufactured by Kendall. PriMed is similar to Kerlix, although is vacuum packaged to save space. Both products are useful for improvised bandaging, as well as soaking up a considerable amount of blood, and applying compression to a wound.

I mentioned these items as when combined with your ETD (and perhaps a SAM splint and ACE type bandage) you would have a good basis to treat most wilderness injuries and trauma that you're likely to run into.

Jim