Experience with Knoxx recoil stocks

I was thinking of getting a home-defense weapon, and from the opinions listed here and elsewhere, have settled on getting a 12 gauge shotgun, most likely a Mossberg 500 series. I fired one at a shooting range, and the instructor advised me to invest the extra $150 or so in a Knoxx recoil stock.

I was wondering if anyone here has any experience with the Knoxx, and what I can expect it to do to the gun's accuracy/performance. Also, I know this may be opening a can of worms, but I would welcome arguments for and against the Mossberg line of products.

Thanks, as always.


Mark

I don't have any information about Knoxx products but at $150 you might want to try something cheaper first. I have a short-barreled Mosin-Nagant rifle that kicked like a a drunk Mike Tyson. It was tamed into a kitten by a $9 slip-on recoil pad from Academy Sports.

Another thing would be to switch to lower-powered self defense rounds. I don't remember the name of any off the top of my head, but my CCW instuctor recommended them for home-defense shotguns used by small-statured people or those not used to shooting.

-Blast

First, that's a solid choice for home defense. Futher, I applaud you for getting some training. Keep that up.

As for your questions... Blast has it right. Here is my take:

#1 Low recoil 00 buck for your 12 guage is an EXCELLENT choice.
*it tends to pattern better
*the kick reduction really helps second shot accuracy (et al) for most shooters
*it slightly lessens over-penetration in the home
*it takes off just enough to make a nice difference without sacrificing real-world stopping power in nearly all situations

#2 The Knoxx stocks are interesting and some combat shooters swear by them. But for most folks, a top quality recoil pad, or better yet, a stock wit a built-in pad is a better and cheaper choice. You migh consider something with the Limbsaver pad and/or a Speedfeed stock. Heck there is even one that will hold 4 extra rounds so you can talk yourself out of bolting on the silly side saddle!
One more thought, while the specops stocks from Knoxx do reduce the felt recoil, they do so with movement. Depending on what you are doing with the gun that can be an issue.

In any case, the Mossberg is a solid choice. Good luck with it.

Ditto the above. Try a cheap pad first. Limbsaver is supposed to be pretty good. Go to the Knoxx website, there's some videos about how it helps (showing shooters). There's also the option of a recoil pad that mounts to the stock, in place of the standard pad, that's supposed to be good too (I think Limbsaver makes them as well).

Personally, I found that my 870 doesn't kick too bad with buckshot. Slugs, yeah, they hurt. But then, I'm used to a Mauser and Mosin-Nagant, so I'm kind of a "big kick" kind of shooter. If you're using birdshot, it kicks even less (for home distances, birdshot MIGHT be OK). Personally, my first round is bird, with follow up buckshot.

FYI, I have a slip on pad on my 870.

If you want to improve safety in your home, and get a bead on an intruder (before he shoots you), consider buying a Baby Monitor from your local electronics store. These are essentially low-cost security cameras, and they come with a radio link between the camera and a handheld TV screen. You can place the camera (which is small) to cover the key access ways in your house, and keep the handheld screen beside your bed. Presto! You can see any problem if your hear a noise in your house, without getting into the line of fire of an approaching burglar. Check out the various models, because some cameras don't work well at night, and some radio links are interrupted by cell phones. But the good Baby Monitors have excellent resolution and no cell phone disturbances.

Pete

FWIW

There is a concern with using any radio transmitting device in that you are NOT the only one that can receive the transmissions.

Admittedly the signal strength is not very high and has a rather limited range, but it could also provide others with the same view that you have, which is why I encourage folks to keep their computer and laptop cameras physically covered when not in use, it is TOO easy for them to be hijacked without your knowledge.

Regards,
Comanche7

I would settle on a cheaper pad too. I just looked at the 500 series and the 930 which comes with either porting or a muzzlebreak. In heavier loads, you get not only recoil to the shoulder, but muzzle jump as well which affects accuracy too. And the lighter the gun, the less mass there is to absorb recoil. I might investigate some sort of break.

That said, even my really seasoned shoulder does not shoot slugs well. I recently saw a personal defense program that showed slugs vs. buckshot vs. birdshot and the damage each does at different distances through walls, etc. I'm going to arm with 1-1/8 oz of 7-1/2 shot. Given my house size and set up, I can't risk sending a slug into the neighbor boys' bedroom.

I purchased a 12 gauge short barrel Mosberg 500 shotgun two years ago for my wife's self defense since I am away often. Due to past operations, she can't have anything against her shoulders that kick at all. I purchased a Knoxx Breachers hand grip and removed the stock. The Breachers Grip has a spring that takes up the recoil. It works beautifully. She can shoot any load bird, slug, or breacher with no problem. Her only complaint is that she can't fit the gun in her purse.

On one of Knoxx's videos, it depicts shooting the shotgun single handed like a pistol. Although I don't recommend it, I have done it with no problem or pain. I beleive I purchased the Breachers Grip for $99.00 off the net.

Our indoor gun club is two block from our home and she is there at least once a week with one of her hand guns. When I am home, we head out to the clubs outdoor range where she practices with the shotgun and larger caliber hand guns.

I always let her know when I will return home late at night for my own self defense!

My husband does too after I was yelling out in my sleep one night, "Stop or I'll shoot!"

Unless you are a lot smaller than the weapon I vote the opposite.
Keep it simple, keep it stock.

I've fired one, for three rounds of a relatively low-recoil small shot load. Meh, but it was something I could shoot one handed with my arm fully extended and not really be bothered by it, but I don't mind some recoil that much. (I have a lot of mass, so the force needed to accelerate it is pretty impressive, and I lean into my shots.)

Personally, if you are worried about recoil, I'd look at something other than a shotgun. A pistol caliber carbine has lower recoil, more ammunition, and is more accurate at longer range. A good lever action in .357 or .44 will cost about as much, and isn't much harder to work in terms of action (is harder to reload, but you have twice as many rounds), while still giving you a nice, intimidating metal-on-metal cycling noise.

The Mossberg is a great choice. Just make sure you have done everything else you can--motion lights, trim back tall bushes and trees next to house, replace with cactus (if you're in the right climate) add the 3M film to help shatter-proof your windows, etc. As you obviously know, the Mossberg gets used when every other level of defense has been defeated. As I've had the opportunity to learn (unfortunately), there's nothing like the feel of a good gun butt in your hand when something goes bump in the night.

The knoxx stock does work. I owned 2 of them. 1 is still installed on a shotgun, the other has been retired.

While they do reduce the amount of recoil FELT in a shot, they do it by a series of springs which actually increase the recoil pulse, if you are use to shooting say your mossberg fast, switching over to this stock will more than likely slow you down since your timing will be off. This is what happened on my 870P. I went back to a plain jane speedfeed and could not be happier.

On your example I will also say stay away from any pistol grip stocks. A mossberg has a thumb safety on it, if you go a pistol grip style stock, you need to move a hand off the firearm to disengage it, OR just leave it off. Either in my book are bad choices.

Other things about knoxx stocks. They weight more. the grip protrudes from the firearm more and can get caught up on things in the tight areas of a house. There are alot of parts, IE more possibilites to break something. And yes the knoxx has broke, there were a few photos on shotgunworld forums about it.

I feel better with a speedfeed stock and forend (or even better the surefire equipped light forend). I have 5 870s, a Benelli M4 and a a M590A1. With the exception of 1 870, they all sport standard sport style stocks, even the benelli. Best thing I did to it. But this is a opnion related matter. If you like the PG style stocks, then go for it, I however did not.

Uploaded a before and after for you.
After- how I like them


Before

Mossberg makes a good shotgun. It is hard mess up such a simple weapon design. I would recommend using bird shot loads instead of buck shot for inside the house. If you have family in the house with you, that is. The bird shot energy will be dissipated in the walls and less likely to penetrate, causing injuries to the ones you are trying to protect. A direct hit on a grown man with bird shot at the ranges you are dealing with inside a house will knock him down hard. If you are living alone, then buck shot is just fine. I like to mix buck shot and slugs, just in case you need even more penetration.

+1 to Speedfeed stock and SureFire forend.

That's the elegant solution for a HD shotgun.

My first consideration for reducing the recoil of a shotgun is to get it aggressively ported. I have a couple of barrels that are well ported, and it makes more difference to me in recoil than any buttstock add-on I've tried (the Knoxx is a system I haven't experienced yet, but utspoolup's observation rings true). You can get a shotgun barrel ported for cheap, probably less than the knoxx stock you are considering. Not only will it help with recoil, it will also reduce muzzle climb. I have a Mossberg Ultimag with factory ported hunting barrel and it reduces the recoil on a 12 gauge 3 1/2 magnum to about what I feel shooting 2 3/4" skeet and trap loads, in other words, pillow soft.

The beauty of porting a Mossberg 500 barrel is that you can get interchangable barrels for it, without having to alter the rest of the gun.

Find a local gunsmith with a good reputation and they should be able to port it for you no problem.

I picked up a simple rubber one from a sporting goods store for something like $30.

What do you think about target load? I have a large box of target load sitting beside the box of clays and the thrower, I figure grabbing a sporting clay gun rather than a home defense gun looke more innocent.

I wouldn't be concerned about appearances. If you have to draw down on someone, a 12 gauge aperture is going to be just as intimidating whether it looks combat ready or more aesthetic. (Memories of John Wayne pulling up a Greener side by side in the face of a man about to attack him with an axe come to mind)

Target loads for in home defense are more than adequate. I much prefer them inside the home, for the reasons mentioned previous. Shooting an invader at close range with a target load of #7 or #8 shot in a 2 3/4 inch round, even at modest shotgun velocities, is still going to hit the opponent with a lot more energy than even my hottest 44 magnum loads out of my Super Redhawk. Shot dispersion, even out of an 18" cylinder bore barrel is going to be minimal. I would expect the pattern to be no more than 12" across shooting the length of my bedroom, which is a good 25 feet (based on a typical 60" dispersal at 40 yards). Lighter loads with smaller shot size generally pattern tighter, and the overpenetration problems are greatly mitigated, and the reduction in perceived recoil is significant, and you are still taking shots at someone with a big bore shotgun, which they will be fully aware of even if you don't hit them the first time.

I always tell my wife and daughters to keep the butt against your shoulder, aim for the belt buckle, and remember how many shots you've taken. The last thing you wannt to hear in a gunfight is the click on an empty chamber, for it also tells the opponent you are now likely unarmed (except for wielding the gun as a club). In home defense, I don't concern myself with reloading the gun. If 8 rounds don't get the job done, then more likely won't be any better, and you probably are just wasting your ammo anyways. There's no reason to fire for effect with a shotgun in a house. After the first two rounds, everyone nearby will know what's going on.

+1.

If you're dead set on the 12 gauge then I would try a nice recoil pad first. Like others have already stated; your ammunition choices are going to play a huge role in the severity of the recoil.

If you're not dead set on the 12 gauge & the recoil is a major drawback then you might want to consider other options. A carbine, such as suggested by ironraven, is a real pussycat in the recoil department.

ETA...
I hate to say it but I witnessed some failures on Mossberg shotguns years ago that left me a little jaded. I would personally prefer a Remington or better.

I have the Mossberg 500 and the Remington 870, similarly configured, and I prefer the Mossberg. But I like the Remington too. They are both fine, I think it's a bit like what ice cream you prefer, vanilla or chocolate.

As far as the Knox recoil pad...I don't really think that they are needed, but some folks swear by them. I guess it all depends on what you like. I don't mind the buck of a 12ga, my wife didn't like it, so I got her the Mossberg 500 in 20 Ga - at 15 feet, 12 or 20 ga is going to put a hole in anyone, so it's not a matter of one or the other being a better "stopping" weapon, it's a matter of which one you can actually USE.

Thank you folks for the responses.

Since I live in a suburban area with close neighbors, I am extremely concerned about overpenetration. The many threads on this forum about caliber choices and their effects left me feeling uneasy about the idea of pistol caliber rifles and powerful handguns. So I'm going to stick with the shotgun, and judging by the responses, the Mossberg will be a good choice.

It looks like I should check out a stock pad and lower-recoil ammo first, and look for a good gunsmith in my area to ask about porting the barrel.

I have a couple of follow-up questions, though. Benjammin, does the increased porting significantly reduce muzzle velocity and add to noise generation? Utspoolup and MedB, can you tell me more about the speedfeed stock and the surefire forend? What advantages and disadvantages do they provide?

Thanks again.

Like you, I am also concerned about over-penetration. There are lots of theories out there, but some great real world testing has been done here...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

You might want to nose around a bit in the forum section there too. Some very knowledgable folks including ER surgeons, ballistics experts and others.

As for Speedfeed stocks... they are simply an excellent aftermarket stock that integrate a nice recoil pad. Personally I don't like the slip-on pads for HD simply because I am paranoid and worry that it won't stay put. Probably silly on my part. -shrug- Also these stocks are very well made and fit like a glove on Remington and Mossberg. Super easy.

NOTE: Speedfeed has a model (Speedfeed I) that holds 4 extra rounds in the stock itself. Lots of folks like having spare ammo on hand and this is a sleek way of doing that instead of a protruding 5 shot "side sadddle" that bolts on the gun.

http://www.speedfeedinc.com/products.html


As for the SureFire... I believe this is the one "accessory" that really is needed for a HD shotgun. There is so much tacti-cool crap that can be bought and most of does nothing; or worse can cause problems! But a good weaponlight is a whole different thing.

I've posted in another thread on this, but it comes down to this fact. Hopefully it will never happen, but if it does you pick up a weapon that has the power to kill a human being. And other humans including kids hidden behind walls, neighbors, etc. I DARN sure want to see what I am aiming at at 3 AM in the morning with my heart pounding, scared to death for myself and my family. There is no "oops" when it comes to deadly force.

With shotguns, it's nearly impossible use a handheld light and the gun at the same time (yes I know some LEOs say it can be done). And again, bolt-on type items run the risk of getting snagged and/or fumbling with switches etc. No time for that. So the SureFire front end integrates right onto the gun. Rugged as heck (made to the vibrations of weapon fire), always there, instant-on switch right where it should be. It's the elegant solution.

http://www.surefire.com/Mossberg590500

Is the light expensive? Yup. But IMHO, if push came to shove and you only get one thing, this is it.

Hope this helps and keep up with the training,

Porting will have no significant affect on muzzle velocity.

+2 on TheBoxOfTruth

They have segment on HD shotguns.

One thing to keep in mind with a speedfeed is that to access and reload the rounds, you need your hand off the trigger. In other words, you're giving up control of your weapon. The segment on TBOT shows this well - assuming you shoot righty.

Like said before, if you can't hit it the first few times, the extra rounds probably won't help.

I was not going to comment on this thread about what gun to choose for shooting somebody.
I don't enjoy the question and I usually end up getting flamed by people who think you need bigger and bigger guns.
Bigger is not always better.

OK, here goes

#6 birdshot or smaller might not be heavy enough.

You start getting into trap and skeet loads and they might not have enough power to get through a heavy jacket and sweater.

#2 buckshot in a low recoil load (read lower power) was originally produced at police request just for the problem you describe. It has an effective range out to 25 yards instead of the hunting load's 50 yards, and is supposed to be stopped after one interior partition, but often get through 2. Box of Truth misses on this a bit because they don't have their sheets of gypsum board separated by the width of a room like 2 partitions would be.
You shouldn't need to shoot 25 yards (75 feet) in a home defense.
Anything larger like hunting loads on 00 buck or slug are simply overkill that puts innocent bystanders at risk.

You are right about birdshot from #4 up being effective at the ranges you need, likely less than 3 yards, certainly not more than 10 yards.
As you know, the lighter the shot the faster it loses power over distance.
Most light birdshot (<#6)has lost enough power to be nonlethal at 10 yards (30 feet)

Now about the tacticool stuff.
It seems most house invasions are either in the day when they are not expecting you to be home, or at night and they turn the lights on anyhow.
(Only the most retarded burgler would stumble around in the dark trying to steal what he can't even see.
If the lights are not on it is more likely one of your own kids trying to sneak out or back home without waking you up.)
If they didn't turn the lights on, then you should.
Besides, if you shoot in the dark you will likely end up blinded by the muzzle flash anyhow.

If it is a burgler and they are armed, and you expect them to shoot, then a flashlight on your gun just makes a real good target for them to shoot at.

Finally, if you shoot somebody inside your home you had better be ready to explain it to a judge. The more your home defense weapon looks like a wannabe military assault weapon the harder time you will have explaining.


Somebody mentioned that if recoil really bothers you a 16 gauge could be an option.
A nice innocent looking 16 gauge loaded with heavier birdshot (magnums?) or light buck, (like you might use at the trap range or for hunting) might be a bit easier to explain in court.

A shorter barrel is a nice thing too. Still long enough to point well and short enough to be easy to use in a house.

You should also consider spending a bit of time at the skeet range. The distance you shoot for skeet is more like what you need than traps and you need to get on target fast to hit skeet.

I agree with and respect a lot of what was said above. However...

There is an assumption there are no instances of power being cut to your home... or power outages after a hurricane/earthquake/incident... And consider this real-world scenario if you will:

It's dark oclock in the morning. You awake to sounds in your home and see the hall lights on outside your dark bedroom. You are sleepy, scared, disoriented. Unsure of what's going or if it's even a threat. You listen and sounds of hushed male voices come to you. You take out your (secured) HD shotgun as your whisper for your wife to dial 911. Not being a hero or ego-driven macho man, you are content to wait in the dark bedroom unseen. Just then a dark figure appears in the bedroom doorway silhouetted against the light in the hallway.

Shoot or don't shoot?

For me the answer is no. Too many questions. Do I know this person? Does he have a weapon? But if I wait I am risking our safety.

Flash the light on the dark figure.

a) It's my wife's drunk brother decided to crash at our place instead of drive further (insert any non-threat)
b) It's a crazed stranger I've never seen with a knife/gun in his hand stepping into our bedroom


The fact is, NOT using a light source runs counter to pretty much every training out there. And "flashing" is the reason SureFire puts and instant-on switch (instead of constant on) under your thumb.


The bottom line is this....

We are talking about an extreme situation where deadly force is required because, and ONLY because, you fear for your life or the life of loved ones. Otherwise run away, call the police, let your car get stolen, let them take your grandmother's silverware! Who cares? Ego, materialism, macho, and even legal "appearances" have no place in this moment. There is only one imperative... Am I in fear of my or my family's safety enough to take a human life? If yes, what is the safest way to do so?

I hope none of us ever face this situation. But if we do, I pray we have the clarity of purpose to make the right choice and focus on the gravity of what truly matters.

I think we can agree to have different opinions on how useful under the muzzle flashlights are.
It might even be a nice discussion topic in a gun forum thread.
I don't want to get into it though.

Your other comments above about being aware is a bigger comment than whether you turn the lights on or not.
Identifying what you are aiming at before pulling the trigger, instead of shooting just because of unthinking fear is very important.
Not everything that goes bump in the night is a monster.

Quite true. Often it's my 3-legged dog tripping.

[quote=scafool
Identifying what you are aiming at before pulling the trigger, instead of shooting just because of unthinking fear is very important.
Not everything that goes bump in the night is a monster.

[/quote]

We are in total lock-step on this most important point.

No one, and I mean no one, enters my house without advance notice. Not only do none of my relatives or associates have a legitimate means of entry (ie me giving them a key), but anyone who would enter without advance notice would be identified long before making it to my bedroom door. If they know me at all, they would have no doubt what action to expect on my part if such an event as you described were to develop. Finding themselves inside my house at night, the best thing they could do for themselves is lay on the ground with their hands out flat in front of them in plain sight, and hope that I am awake enough not to pull the trigger.

As for house lighting, if the power goes off, I have LED lights that would kick on, with enough ambient lighting to ensure I could identify my target.

The "a" scenario would never be a consideration. Anyone coming into my house unannounced would be an invader. If they are standing at my bedroom door, the next thing they will hear/see is the click of the sear releasing and a bright flash.

Scafool and MedB make very good points about being judicious in choosing to use a weapon and at whom to point it. My personal credo is to kill only what is necessary and when it's necessary. I don't hunt or fish for sport, and harmless bugs get put outside. So I am very mindful of the words of wisdom offered here. However, like everyone who regularly reads this site, I have a strong biological imperative to live, therefore I take steps to ensure my continued existence.

I live with only one other person and no (known) critters. The current plan when something goes bump in the night is to yell for the other person to run into my bedroom, close the door, turn on the lights, grab the phone and call the police. I will prep the weapon, and once she’s safely behind me and out of harm's way, will take a firing position. Hopefully, any intruder entering the room will have a momentary adjustment to the light, delaying him (or her, I shouldn't be sexist here) in pinpointing my position. That hesitation should allow me to identify a law enforcement uniform. No uniform, I fire. I have no intention of sweeping for the intruder(s), so I don’t think a mounted flashlight will be necessary.

I welcome comments and criticisms of the plan.

I've used the Knox products before and they do help with recoil - but they came on guns that I bought and I don't think I would buy them to add to any guns I have.

Is the recoil for the shotgun too much for you? If it is, I'd urge you to try a recoil reducer, porting the barrels, or perhaps consider stepping down to a 20 gauge. The most important thing is that you feel comfortable enough shooting the gun that you will actually go out and practice with it at least several times a year. Ideally, I would want a 12 instead of a 20 , but it won't do you any good to have a very powerful gun sitting in your closet that you never practice with because it's too painful.

If you are just starting out, you can buy light loads to practice with at the range, but, of course, you should ultimately practice with what you will have it loaded with so that the additional recoil isn't a surprise.

If you can, see if you can fire a gun with one of the pistol grip stocks - some people really think that helps with control.

If you are worried about overpenetration, you can get #2 or #4 shot and it will certainly dissuade anyone from advancing towards you at the ranges you are likely to encounter in a house. But, again, practice is key here so that you can feel comfortable hitting center of mass every time at indoor ranges.

Finally, the Mossberg is a very decent, reliable gun. I really like the safety on top feature so you can flick it with your thumb. I've used one for duck hunting and it held up to very serious abuse without failing.